Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
From what I can tell, they came late to the party. Jim Foral is my favorite gun writer. He’s written multiple Gun Digest articles and has won the John T. Amber Literary Award more than once. He’s written many articles over the last many decades and his articles are very well-researched and informative. He very recently wrote the article below and I learned a much about the origins of long range (e.g. 1000 yard) shooting competition in the U.S. Little did I know, it all started in response to an invitation from a champion Irish long-range shooting team – who traveled to the U.S. As you will see in the article, Remington and Sharps quickly got on board, building rifles for long range match competition. Winchester seems to have not responded. I would love to have heard the management discussion at the Winchester plant at the time as they must have been aware. I would speculate they initially went with a wait and see stance. However, we know they didn’t stay with that. Anyway, this is an entertaining article. The main focus of the story is a prize cup that went missing for a few decades, but I enjoyed learning about the origins and timing of long-range competition:
https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/the-wyoming-schuetzen-union-s-center-shot-14
steve004 said
Winchester seems to have not responded.
How could they when it would have required inventing & tooling up to mfg. an entirely new kind of rifle? Remember, Winchester’s original object for going into the arms business was to mfg. REPEATING firearms, the “new thing” in firearms evolution, & it was only through a kind of accident–discovering the new single shot John Browning was building–that the company finally began producing the kind of long range rifle suitable for such competition; but it was 15 yrs too late!
Rem & Sharps, on the other hand, were already building just the kind of rifles required for this contest, so no surprise they took up the challenge.
How long range competition began, the construction of the Creedmoor Range, the rifles, the shooters who participated, etc. is all covered thoroughly in this old NRA book:
clarence said
steve004 said
Winchester seems to have not responded.How could they when it would have required inventing & tooling up to mfg. an entirely new kind of rifle? Remember, Winchester’s original object for going into the arms business was to mfg. REPEATING firearms, the “new thing” in firearms evolution, & it was only through a kind of accident–discovering the new single shot John Browning was building–that the company finally began producing the kind of long range rifle suitable for such competition; but it was 15 yrs too late!
Rem & Sharps, on the other hand, were already building just the kind of rifles required for this contest, so no surprise they took up the challenge.
How long range competition began, the construction of the Creedmoor Range, the rifles, the shooters who participated, etc. is all covered thoroughly in this old NRA book:
Clarence – thanks for your comments and perspective. Single-shots are a weak spot in my knowledge base. I start these threads with the agenda of learning something – and that never fails. I tend to start threads about topics I don’t know a lot about vs. something I know a lot about.
Historically, I think of Winchester as having been a dynamic, compelling and dominating force. But yes, their niche had been highly focused on repeating arms. However, it didn’t take them long to manufacture a heck of a single shot rifle in a dazzling array of chamberings and configurations 
steve004 said
Historically, I think of Winchester as having been a dynamic, compelling and dominating force. But yes, their niche had been highly focused on repeating arms.
Seems fantastic to believe now, but for the first decade of the company’s existence it actually attempted to obtain a monopoly on the mfg. of repeating firearms by buying up competing designs & patents (such as the Robinson patents), or suing their inventors for patent infringement. Potential sales to a relative small number of long range target shooters, or pro buffalo hunters, was small potatoes compared to the market of average hunters & sportsmen they were aiming for.
steve004 said
From what I can tell, they came late to the party. Jim Foral is my favorite gun writer. He’s written multiple Gun Digest articles and has won the John T. Amber Literary Award more than once. He’s written many articles over the last many decades and his articles are very well-researched and informative. He very recently wrote the article below and I learned a much about the origins of long range (e.g. 1000 yard) shooting competition in the U.S. Little did I know, it all started in response to an invitation from a champion Irish long-range shooting team – who traveled to the U.S. As you will see in the article, Remington and Sharps quickly got on board, building rifles for long range match competition. Winchester seems to have not responded. I would love to have heard the management discussion at the Winchester plant at the time as they must have been aware. I would speculate they initially went with a wait and see stance. However, we know they didn’t stay with that. Anyway, this is an entertaining article. The main focus of the story is a prize cup that went missing for a few decades, but I enjoyed learning about the origins and timing of long-range competition:https://www.blackpowdercartridge.com/the-wyoming-schuetzen-union-s-center-shot-14
Steve, that is interesting about this side of Jim. I have dealt with him a few times over the years to obtain rare Newton items. He is one of the few Newton experts and is a major collector. Larry Wales is another collector that has a wonderful collection of Newtons. He has authored several books. He is also a WACA member and often displays his Winchesters.
Winchester competed in summer 1876 with an early version of the model 1876 rifle at Creedmore. The 1876 rifle was used as a single loader by Captain James E. Stetson and won a gold prize offered by Schuyler, Hartley and Graham. The rifle was competing against target grade rifles made by Remington, Sharps, Providence Tool Works, etc. It scored the most points in three matches.
Please see “The Winchester Model 1876 ‘Centennial’ Rifle” by Herbert G. Houze, pages 75-76.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
Winchester competed in summer 1876 with an early version of the model 1876 rifle at Creedmore. The 1876 rifle was used as a single loader by Captain James E. Stetson and won a gold prize offered by Schuyler, Hartley and Graham. The rifle was competing against target grade rifles made by Remington, Sharps, Providence Tool Works, etc. It scored the most points in three matches.Please see “The Winchester Model 1876 ‘Centennial’ Rifle” by Herbert G. Houze, pages 75-76.
Do you know what distances they were shooting at?
Maybe this was the inspiration for the creation of the .45-90 for the Model 1876?
The article does not mention the ranges
steve004 said
Do you know what distances they were shooting at?
Maybe this was the inspiration for the creation of the .45-90 for the Model 1876?
The article does not mention the distances. It says the medal was sponsored by Schuyler, Hartley and Graham and was administered by the National Rifle Association.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
The article does not mention the rangesThe article does not mention the distances. It says the medal was sponsored by Schuyler, Hartley and Graham and was administered by the National Rifle Association.
Doesn’t mention the range? Never heard of ANY report of a target shooting competition that wasn’t very specific about that. Frankly, it makes me skeptical. I’d like to read this article myself, but not enough to buy a book I have no interest in otherwise. Where was the article originally published, & by whom? Maybe I can find it online.
I found the reference that Houze was using. It’s the early catalogs. Specifically, the May 1, 1879 catalog, pages 4-5. It is used again in several subsequent catalogs.
As I said earlier in this thread the prize was offered by Schuyler, Hartley and Graham in the summer and fall of 1876. Open to all comers. Distance 200 yards. Position Standing. Any rifle, magazine guns used as a single loader. The target was in the shape of a running deer.
Here is a photo from pages 4-5 of the May 1, 1879 catalog. There is more on the next page of the catalog. One can presume Winchester gained some prestige from this win since they put it into several of the early catalogs. According to Houze, as late as 1896 a customer tried to order a rifle like the one that Captain Stetson had used twenty years earlier to win the gold medal.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
I am a long range black powder cartridge shooter that has shot many matches from 800-1000 yds as the they did during the 1874-1880’s matches. I have read a great deal on the Long Range matches between the Irish and the U.S. including what rifles were used during those matches and have never seen anything printed about a Winchester 1876 rifle being used. The primary rifles used were the Sharps Models 1874,1877, and the 1878 Borchardt along with the Remington Rolling Block. Towards the end of these, matches, an occasional Ballard or Maynard showed up but never made much of a mark. This is on our side of the pond. One of the criteria was that the rifle had to weigh 10 lbs or under and I don’t think that an 1876 weighs under 10 lbs. It would have to have been a one of a kind with at least a 1-20″ twist to stabilize a 500 + gr bullet to 1000 yds. to be successful. It is possible that the 1876 rifle was used in some kind of specialty match to win that prize such as the only one being represented. “To Encourage Rapidity and Accuracy”. An example would be, the well known marksman Milton Farrow, who won a Ballard rifle presented by the Company for shooting the highest score using a Ballard rifle. He won it, because he was the only one using a Ballard rifle. Milton supposedly was quite the “gamer”.
I’ve also read David Minshall’s writings on the Creedmoor matches and he has done more research on them than anybody I know. I have posted his website as it has a tremendous amount of information. He resides on the other side of the pond and writes from the UK perspective.
The 1885 was eventually used and modified for target shooting. Naturally not in the early years. I see a lot of post 1900 guns that have been modified (ruined) for target shooting.
I’ll have to find it but I do believe once the Single Shot came out. Winchester had its own factory team that went to competitions and won several.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 7, 2015
Offline
Chuck said
The 1885 was eventually used and modified for target shooting. Naturally not in the early years. I see a lot of post 1900 guns that have been modified (ruined) for target shooting.
Maverick said
I’ll have to find it but I do believe once the Single Shot came out. Winchester had its own factory team that went to competitions and won several.Sincerely,
Maverick
Thanks. I’ve been wondering how much John Browning’s Single Shot was influenced by this type of shooting competition. I believe it can still be found on the firing line at BPCR matches. I read that JMB and his brothers regularly competed informally with rifles and shotguns so the connection seems logical.
Mike
Maverick said
I’ll have to find it but I do believe once the Single Shot came out. Winchester had its own factory team that went to competitions and won several.Sincerely,
Maverick
Not Creedmoore or other long range matches–they were all but dead by the time Winchester produced its SS. Schuetzen matches at 200 yds (usually) & indoor matches were the most active forms of competition when the company hired top marksmen to shoot for them.
Bill Hockett said
Distance 200 yards. Position Standing. Any rifle, magazine guns used as a single loader. The target was in the shape of a running deer.
So it was an off-hand match, & more than that, a snap-shooting match unlike any I ever heard of! The gun had to be held below the elbow until the command to fire, after which the shooter had 30 sec. to get off as many shots as he could. An excellent test of practical field shooting ability, but not a test of the gun & its accuracy as much as the quickness & gun-handling ability of the shooter himself. Closer to trap or skeet than Creedmoor-style shooting, so it’s not surprising the 76 performed well.
Maverick said
I’ll have to find it but I do believe once the Single Shot came out. Winchester had its own factory team that went to competitions and won several.Sincerely,
Maverick
Schuetzen matches were very popular using the 1885 Winchester up until World War I. The schuetzen rifles are a world unto their own. Also a small batch of 1885’s were turned out by the factory in 30-06 to be used in long-range matches and the Olympics early in the 20th century. The forearm was fitted with a cork palm rest and the receiver had to be fitted with a special extractor for the rimless 30-06 cartridge.
Old-Win said
Schuetzen matches were very popular using the 1885 Winchester up until World War I. The schuetzen rifles are a world unto their own. Also a small batch of 1885’s were turned out by the factory in 30-06 to be used in long-range matches and the Olympics early in the 20th century. The forearm was fitted with a cork palm rest and the receiver had to be fitted with a special extractor for the rimless 30-06 cartridge.
There were (27) “International Match Rifles” made in August 1913, chambered for the 30-06R cartridge. They were made to the specifications requested by A. Laudensack, and were used in the Palma International.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Here’s one that was on auction eight years ago. I note they state it was .30-06 rimless.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/57/1007/winchester-1885rifle-3006
1 Guest(s)
