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oldcrankyyankee said
I am starting this thread up because I received an email today from RIA about this 86. They stated quote, it’s a hand cut caliber marking which they sometimes did. They also provided a picture of the under barrel markings, which compared to the ones on a rifle I have they look very much alike, except the 45 looks like it was restruck. I will try to copy the picture to here if I can figure out how. Anyway it seems it may be legit. If it is I hope it goes for big $$$ because the one I just bought was considerably better priced.
A hand cut caliber marking which “they” sometimes did. Define “they”. The Winchester factory or the clever faker?
I doubt there was anything hand cut because the question would be “Why?”.
And as Bert pointed out previously it has a checkered steel SB plate. Should be a rubber SB plate, but the letter will say “shotgun butt”. No mention of rubber like the one I just got. I do have 1 86 with a metal SB and letter simply states shotgun butt. BTW it is same vintage as the one under discussion.
mrcvs saidA hand cut caliber marking which “they” sometimes did. Define “they”. The Winchester factory or the clever faker? I doubt there was anything hand cut because the question would be “Why?”.
Indeed. Why?
Why would Winchester do such a thing? Especially when they had drawers full of stamps to choose from. Along with drawings and written procedures stating “stamp caliber thusly” showing the location and manner to stamp the caliber. Even if the stamp broke, they would simply recut the stamp or make an entire new one for the next 45-90 barrel coming down the line.
I’m not aware of any genuine examples with of “hand cut” caliber markings. Even the engraved guns used stamps for the caliber markings.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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What’s that curious smell? Could it be …. the powerful odor of mendacity?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
What’s that curious smell? Could it be …. the powerful odor of mendacity?
Bingo! As long as it increases the bottom line, does it really matter if the story is truthful or not.
Hand cut…and faked! Don’t reach for your wallets, boys and girls.
I am glad I bought the one I did. just as nice and has no excuses that I can see. I was hoping Bert would offer some input on this one. The best part is the responses I got from RIA. But hey, that’s their job, sell your gun.
oldcrankyyankee said
I was hoping Bert would offer some input on this one. The best part is the responses I got from RIA. But hey, that’s their job, sell your gun.
I did offer some input… go back and read Post #16 in this topic string.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
I was hoping Bert would offer some input on this one. The best part is the responses I got from RIA. But hey, that’s their job, sell your gun.
I did offer some input… go back and read Post #16 in this topic string.
Yes I know, sorry I should have been more to the point. What I meant was your thoughts of the idea “they” hand cut caliber stamps sometimes, as RIA customer service told me. And what you thought of the under barrel markings. I will be more clear in the future.
Tom – all of this makes yours stand out all the more as an exceptional piece. I have a great deal of envy for the one you have (and several other of your M1886’s). I think you have done very well picking those pieces up.
oldcrankyyankee said
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
I was hoping Bert would offer some input on this one. The best part is the responses I got from RIA. But hey, that’s their job, sell your gun.
I did offer some input… go back and read Post #16 in this topic string.
Yes I know, sorry I should have been more to the point. What I meant was your thoughts of the idea “they” hand cut caliber stamps sometimes, as RIA customer service told me. And what you thought of the under barrel markings. I will be more clear in the future.
My thoughts are this… the person in RIA’s customer service who stated “they” hand cut the caliber markings is either a complete BEM, or he got marching orders from above to make up some type of bogus excuse. Winchester never “hand cut” (engraved) any of the standard (common) caliber markings on any Winchester barrel. Winchester purposefully had more than just one single caliber stamp die on hand in anticipation of a die breaking while in use (which they did with regular frequency). The hidden under-barrel markings are of no consequence in this case as a result of the visible Faked markings.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Not that it’s important in the scheme of things, but I am amused that RIA identifies this rifle as having a 3/4 magazine. It really makes me question the knowledge base of the person writing the description.
steve004 said
Not that it’s important in the scheme of things, but I am amused that RIA identifies this rifle as having a 3/4 magazine. It really makes me question the knowledge base of the person writing the description.
I would guess the technical expertise of a writer at Rock Island Auctions is secondary to the ability to write elaborate stories relative to a firearm. The descriptions are quite lengthy lately and, for the most valuable firearms, at the very least, quite a bit of what might be bordering on the definition of a tall tale.
I should think qualifications to be hired in the catalogue description part of the auction house might be leaning more towards a creative writing trained individual than towards one proficient in firearms.
mrcvs said I should think qualifications to be hired in the catalogue description part of the auction house might be leaning more towards a creative writing trained individual than towards one proficient in firearms.
Actually, that’s always the case in the sales & publicity dept–whatever the product may be. Don’t forget, either, that the world is full of prospective customers who WANT to believe tall tales, & simply aren’t inspired to open their wallets by mere factual descriptions.
clarence said
mrcvs said I should think qualifications to be hired in the catalogue description part of the auction house might be leaning more towards a creative writing trained individual than towards one proficient in firearms.
Actually, that’s always the case in the sales & publicity dept–whatever the product may be. Don’t forget, either, that the world is full of prospective customers who WANT to believe tall tales, & simply aren’t inspired to open their wallets by mere factual descriptions.
Again, a very powerful force out there.
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
I was hoping Bert would offer some input on this one. The best part is the responses I got from RIA. But hey, that’s their job, sell your gun.
I did offer some input… go back and read Post #16 in this topic string.
Yes I know, sorry I should have been more to the point. What I meant was your thoughts of the idea “they” hand cut caliber stamps sometimes, as RIA customer service told me. And what you thought of the under barrel markings. I will be more clear in the future.
My thoughts are this… the person in RIA’s customer service who stated “they” hand cut the caliber markings is either a complete BEM, or he got marching orders from above to make up some type of bogus excuse. Winchester never “hand cut” (engraved) any of the standard (common) caliber markings on any Winchester barrel. Winchester purposefully had more than just one single caliber stamp die on hand in anticipation of a die breaking while in use (which they did with regular frequency). The hidden under-barrel markings are of no consequence in this case as a result of the visible Faked markings.
Bert, thanks for your input as it confirmed my suspicions of “hand cut” stamps. For the record I had no intention of trying to purchase this gun just because of the stamp. I wonder what the other markings look like? But I will not waste anymore of my time debating with them about the legitimacy of the gun. They don’t want to hear it. Maybe I should apply for a job there as an inspector of 1886’s because clearly even as much of a novice that I am I think I could do a better job with whittling out fakes. HaHa just kidding.
oldcrankyyankee said Maybe I should apply for a job there as an inspector of 1886’s because clearly even as much of a novice that I am I think I could do a better job with whittling out fakes. HaHa just kidding.
An inspector of fakes would be the very LAST kind of employee they’d want on the payroll; it’s the fakes that often bring top dollar!
clarence said
oldcrankyyankee said Maybe I should apply for a job there as an inspector of 1886’s because clearly even as much of a novice that I am I think I could do a better job with whittling out fakes. HaHa just kidding.
An inspector of fakes would be the very LAST kind of employee they’d want on the payroll; it’s the fakes that often bring top dollar!
They have a business model that works very well for them.
steve004 said
Tom – all of this makes yours stand out all the more as an exceptional piece. I have a great deal of envy for the one you have (and several other of your M1886’s). I think you have done very well picking those pieces up.
Thanks Steve, I have worked hard to get the ones I have, not only from the money end, but from watching and listening to alot of collectors, including the likes of you and Bert and everyone that lingers around here to learn about collecting. That’s not to say I haven’t made mistakes but I tried to limit them. I know it seems like I asked mundane questions from time to time, but heck you guy’s let me in here!
oldcrankyyankee said
steve004 said
Tom – all of this makes yours stand out all the more as an exceptional piece. I have a great deal of envy for the one you have (and several other of your M1886’s). I think you have done very well picking those pieces up.
Thanks Steve, I have worked hard to get the ones I have, not only from the money end, but from watching and listening to alot of collectors, including the likes of you and Bert and everyone that lingers around here to learn about collecting. That’s not to say I haven’t made mistakes but I tried to limit them. I know it seems like I asked mundane questions from time to time, but heck you guy’s let me in here!
Tom – like most of us around here, you have to be cautious with your available funds. One of the factors I found favorable (and far from insignificant) is you didn’t buy that .45-90 ELW from a big auction house. I’ve been drooling over a M1878 Burgess .45-70 SRC that RIA has. Their auction estimate is $16,000 to $25,000. I figure it will likely hammer at the high estimate end. So, $25,000 but then add in auction commission, sales tax, shipping…. that’s going to be close to 30% of the hammer price – so figure about $7,000 over the hammer price 
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
steve004 said
Tom – all of this makes yours stand out all the more as an exceptional piece. I have a great deal of envy for the one you have (and several other of your M1886’s). I think you have done very well picking those pieces up.
Thanks Steve, I have worked hard to get the ones I have, not only from the money end, but from watching and listening to alot of collectors, including the likes of you and Bert and everyone that lingers around here to learn about collecting. That’s not to say I haven’t made mistakes but I tried to limit them. I know it seems like I asked mundane questions from time to time, but heck you guy’s let me in here!
Tom – like most of us around here, you have to be cautious with your available funds. One of the factors I found favorable (and far from insignificant) is you didn’t buy that .45-90 ELW from a big auction house. I’ve been drooling over a M1878 Burgess .45-70 SRC that RIA has. Their auction estimate is $16,000 to $25,000. I figure it will likely hammer at the high estimate end. So, $25,000 but then add in auction commission, sales tax, shipping…. that’s going to be close to 30% of the hammer price – so figure about $7,000 over the hammer price
Most of us on this forum can barely adopts to look at, let alone buy from, RIA offerings.
Then again, we tend to be a “buy the gun, not the story” crowd.
RIA tends to write elaborate storylines for their most valuable firearms. And they sell for big money, even if a complete fabrication. Which means their customers appear to buy the story (as well as the gun).
Given the big money changing hands, sad to say, it appears to be contrary to the “but the gun not the story” adage.
But I’ll never steer away from that sound advice. Of course, I cannot afford to be the RIA crowd, either.
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