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I ran across this 1886 recently. As a few of you might know I have been searching for an 86 ELW in 45-90 for some time. Hoping others will take a look and pay particular attention to the caliber stamp. It’s lot 3006 at RIA August action, just in case I can’t remember how to link it here.
I don’t like the barrel blue. You would want to see the barrel address.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Looks wonderful, but it’s one of those I’d want to hold on to. Looking at the case color I don’t see one wear mark on the hammer,, from cocking it, which makes Me suspicious. Maybe legit and if so , a very nice ’86
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Bob the bluing does look off, but the caliber stamp is not in a line like every other one I have seen or like all my personal 45-90’s. I think the barrel has been replaced. I’m waiting for sns from Cody on it.
Guess because it’s “only” a 10-14 G gun, it’s not worth more than 4 photos.
I am certain the barrel has been replaced. This rifle depicts a proper .45-90 caliber marking on a Winchester 1886 barrel:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/87/31/winchester-model-1886-lever-action-rifle
mrcvs said
I am certain the barrel has been replaced.
That’s why it’s budget priced.
clarence said
mrcvs said
I am certain the barrel has been replaced.
That’s why it’s budget priced.
I hope that’s sarcasm.
$9500 to $14000 is the most I would want to be into this rifle, even if correct. Probably closer to 10k. If someone bids 14k for this rifle, the high end of the pre auction estimate (not to say it would stop there, as anything is possible at RIA), with buyer’s premium of 17.5%, you’re now at $16,450. Sales tax for me would be $987. Add in shipping and FFL fees and you’re into this over $17,500. That’s A LOT of money for this rifle, even if correct. And it isn’t.
mrcvs said I hope that’s sarcasm.
Me, sarcastic? I’m shocked you’d think so. Isn’t RIA famous for bargains?
clarence said
mrcvs said I hope that’s sarcasm.
Me, sarcastic? I’m shocked you’d think so. Isn’t RIA famous for bargains?
Starting look like it a sale of premier fakes to me.
clarence said
Guess because it’s “only” a 10-14 G gun, it’s not worth more than 4 photos.
Or a serial number search, even better a letter. Which it with in letterable range.
oldcrankyyankee said
clarence said
mrcvs said I hope that’s sarcasm.
Me, sarcastic? I’m shocked you’d think so. Isn’t RIA famous for bargains?
Starting look like it a sale of premier fakes to me.
What amazes me is that the percentage of items in each auction with “problems” seems to increase each and every auction and yet, when the numbers are in, yet another auction record has been, or will be, set, as to total dollars expended. It confounds common sense. Usually, when a business presents a lower quality good or service, sales diminish, and sometimes, the business founders. The reverse seems to be the case here.
mrcvs said It confounds common sense. Usually, when a business presents a lower quality good or service, sales diminish, and sometimes, the business founders. The reverse seems to be the case here.
You gravely underestimate the number of fat-cats with more money than brains, or at least, more money than time to study the subjects of their interests; who regard RI as the gold-standard for honest & expert evaluations.
clarence said
mrcvs said It confounds common sense. Usually, when a business presents a lower quality good or service, sales diminish, and sometimes, the business founders. The reverse seems to be the case here.
You gravely underestimate the number of fat-cats with more money than brains, or at least, more money than time to study the subjects of their interests; who regard RI as the gold-standard for honest & expert evaluations.
I would think REPUTATION would mean something here,when that is often so difficult to build and can be lost fleetingly.
But maybe that is never questioned. I guess there must be a subset of individuals—RIAs primary customer base—who are really good at earning money and lack the TIME to study and appreciate these firearms. These individuals can drop 6 and 7 figures wantonly each and every auction. I guess you, I, and most on this forum have the time to study and speculate. But we don’t have the money for a big time purchase, except for perhaps once in a lifetime. And, we surely do our homework first.
RIAs customer base must be really good at making money to the point should they make a bad acquisition, it’s a whole lot easier just to go and make even more money than to rue over a loss. And, for them, a 5 figure loss on a firearm is likely far less painful than a $500 loss might be for you and I.
Except these “losses” rarely materialize. A high dollar auction price creates a provenance. If not by name, certainly by sale price, date, and location. Whether it’s correct or not really doesn’t matter, it sells for X dollars at a certain time, and Y dollars later, Y often exceeding X greater than the rate of inflation. RIA brokers each and every sale, and, if they do that enough times, their profit on one firearm could very well be staggering!
It’s certainly fine to armchair philosophize, and wonder how this is a successful business model. But the fact remains that it clearly IS, and one should never let the fact a firearm may not be correct get in the way with making a few dollars.
And, there’s no definitive proof RIA even IS doing anything improper. They present photographs and a story. It’s YOUR job to differentiate fact from fiction.
Fake caliber stamp. It also looks to be hand cut.
So fake caliber stamp = redone bluing = faked barrel = fake rifle. Because if the barrel is faked, What else has been?
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
To further validate that the barrel on the ELW rifle in question is a FAKE, I have attached pictures of two authentic 45-90 WCF ELW barrels (the first ELW rifle is s/n 129031). Winchester marked the caliber on the left side of the barrel… not on top.
In addition to the Fake barrel, the butt plate is not correct. Model 1886 ELW rifles were fitted with a black hard rubber butt plate.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
And the envelope please! So I went and ordered a sns from our good friends at Cody and it does validate the rifle in question. BUT it still has a fake barrel on it so not original. And as Bert mentioned the butt plate is incorrect also and not for nothing, all things I picked up on. Maybe it also has a fake lower tang on it too! This is a piece of junk as far as I am concerned. It reminds me of a similar ELW I was looking at a couple months ago that the owner had put an after market barrel on for some reason or another, but he still had the supposed original barrel with it, just not on it. Maybe the same one, I can’t verify as I have deleted the pictures he sent me. Breaks my heart someone would go to this extreme for a short money gun like this. And so sad the “experts” RIA hires can’t even see the light in the dark. I’m of the opinion they are selling a fakers collection at this point. The caliber stamp is SOOO obviously faked it shouldn’t be missed!! But some under educated sphincter muscle flexor with more money than brain cells will bust the bank on this and think he got a great deal continue to ruin a hobby we enjoy! Well sorry for the rambling folks, just PO’ed about dishonesty tonight. Glad I have all of you to bounce these things off of.
oldcrankyyankee said
And the envelope please! So I went and ordered a sns from our good friends at Cody and it does validate the rifle in question. BUT it still has a fake barrel on it so not original.
I always wonder what these “reborn” guns looked like before the plastic surgery. Was it a hopelessly beat-up wreck, or just a well used, but not abused, gun with possibly a neglected bore? If the latter, that’s the kind of gun I like, & might even be able to buy. The mania for “new” old guns such as this one is beyond my understanding, & for those who get burned buying them, I have NO sympathy; in fact, it’s amusing!
I am starting this thread up because I received an email today from RIA about this 86. They stated quote, it’s a hand cut caliber marking which they sometimes did. They also provided a picture of the under barrel markings, which compared to the ones on a rifle I have they look very much alike, except the 45 looks like it was restruck. I will try to copy the picture to here if I can figure out how. Anyway it seems it may be legit. If it is I hope it goes for big $$$ because the one I just bought was considerably better priced.
https://www.rockislandauction.com/account/messages/95706. try this link, if it doesn’t work let me know and I’ll try something else
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