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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813896965
My first thought is, where the heck is the box? I really expected a box.
Next, this would have fit in our previous thread discussing how it is nice when sights, “letter.”
I am assuming this piece has been refinished and note the seller’s usual artful word-smithing where he lavishingly describes the 99% plus condition, as new as possible and so on. Of course, he avoids using the word, “original.” Anyone think I am wrong about the refinish job? And if not, how impressive a job is it?
So… I’m going to make the assumption the letter is not a fake. For that kind of money, I would think most buyers would do their due diligence and confirm with Cody. That would make this a pretty rare piece. How many other 86 carbines in the records just like this one? By the way, if I had been the original person who had ordered this piece, I would have paid the few bucks extra for a cheekpiece buttstock. Oh, and I would have stayed with the standard carbine butt. But that’s just me.
Any other suspicions on this rifle? For example, barrel faked, restocked?
Manuel said
Selling Dad’s old Guns……..shows up again!
That’s why I expected the box! If you look at his other offerings, almost everything has a box (and all the paperwork).
Thats a Turnbull gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Thats a Turnbull gun.Bob
I’m not surprised as it looks like a very top job to me. I would think identifying it as a Turnbull job would be a selling point? I suppose the seller is holding out for someone who will be convinced it is factory original finish.
It would be interesting to know whether this rifle was just refinished, vs. the other direction where maybe the receiver is the only original part. I’ve seen other Winchesters restored by Turnbull where that is the case.
To me being a Turnbull gun is not a selling point. At gun shows I can spot a Turnbull 3 tables away from the dark case colors.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I’m just afraid I’ll have to pass, as seeing the original box is no longer with the gun.
Crying shame. I’d bought it if it had the box.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 7, 2015
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Maverick said
I’m just afraid I’ll have to pass, as seeing the original box is no longer with the gun.
Maverick
I feel pretty sure he can come up with one if you feel that strongly about it. 😉 Must admit that his efforts at wordsmithing do have a certain entertainment value. “Stone Mint”, no less!
Mike
I emailed him asking about the finish originality. He side steps the questionable originality… personally, I think its a poor restoration.
I’m enjoying the thoughts and comments. So, going by the Cody letter and what I see in the photos the, “Barrel made specifically for Sporting Rear Sight” must mean they located the rear sight dovetail in a more forward location and the barrel address was pushed forward of the barrel band. I suppose this may well be the barrel that was on this piece when it was shipped. The wood I am less sure about. The restoration does not appeal to me. I am biased against restorations in general, but this one just leaves me unimpressed. The darkness of the case colors doesn’t help. I wonder what shape it was in before the restoration? If it was just a low-finish piece, I would have loved to own it.
John Hubbard said
I emailed him asking about the finish originality. He side steps the questionable originality… personally, I think its a poor restoration.
I fear there is a real dark side to the current state of collecting. Fakery has never been higher and I am tempted to say knowledge has never been lower. That’s probably overly pessimistic but I don’t like it. Our seller in question here has been selling, purportedly, his “Dad’s” “fabulous collection” for over 7 years now. That has netted him over 200 pieces of positive feedback and an A+ rating on gunbroker. His two most recent sales (that he received feedback on) were, “boxed” Winchesters and the buyers are very happy. He’s not the only one doing it. Far from it. And as we know, more, “boxed” Winchesters are showing up all the time. I appreciate the effort that Bert, Michael and others expend to expose various fraudulent pieces. I just see so much fakery, fraud, deception, misrepresentation, etc. out there. Countering it is like Sisyphus rolling his rock uphill. Anyone interested in purchasing vintage Winchesters as collectibles really should hang out here.
Steve, Funny to me is your reference to the term “dark side”. Years ago gun shows were a social event, when talking to other collectors about a dealer that was honest and then got greedy and went bad I would say “he went to the dark side”. A term left over from Star Wars can and has been used to refer to such a dealer. The dark side has been around since they invented money. T/R
TR said
Steve, Funny to me is your reference to the term “dark side”. Years ago gun shows were a social event, when talking to other collectors about a dealer that was honest and then got greedy and went bad I would say “he went to the dark side”. A term left over from Star Wars can and has been used to refer to such a dealer. The dark side has been around since they invented money. T/R
T/R
-Yes, social events indeed. As I think of it, I recall some regional shows where the regulars referred to the show as a, “gathering of the clan.” I’m sure some shows have been able to hang on to that.
-And yes the, “dark side” extends way beyond collectible firearms. I can’t think of anything for sale that Caveat Emptor does not apply to.
Not my cup of tea. To the extent that I like CCH, I’ve always thought of it as a happy accidental byproduct of trying to put a finish on steel, and not really an intentional effort to achieve beauty. The latter ends up looking like a toy, as does that stock. Where did I put my sun glasses? To each his own, and I’m glad we all have different tastes. I sure wouldn’t want people with money buying up the “crap” that I love. I would not buy a Turnbull gun, or send one to him, even if I were a billionaire.
As to the seller, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and pretend the name was not an effort to convince that he was really selling his dad’s old guns but, rather, that it was just a moniker referring to antiques that he focused on in his sales. You know, like “I sell old guns like your dad used to carry.” However, after reading many posts on this forum about him and his fast talking, I think maybe he is or was trying to convince us he was just some heir who was trying liquidate his dad’s estate.
I wonder if, over the course of time, the truth will be lost and people will just accept the legend that was printed and forget the truth.
What amazes me is that he sells many guns at asking price before they ever hit the auction. Here are three that sold in the last couple weeks. Don’t know much about the guns being origonal but I doubt that they are. The boxes are definitely not origonal.
Deluxe 76 said
Why do you believe those three Winchesters sold? The listing shows that each of those auctions ended with No bids ?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, The seller has about 20 repete customers he gives first shot at before he starts the auction. These guns did sell before the auction started. Some time ago I purchased a couple 42s from this seller. I contacted him to inquire about any other Winchester’s he might have for sale. He told me he had around 600 in his fathers estate and he picked up a half a dozen each week to sell. I told him I would fly to California to take a look but got put off. He said he would put me on a list so I could view the guns before the auction and if I seen something I wanted it was first come first serve. I still get emails each week on the guns pryor to listing.
The 42s were origonal but the boxes were fake and I told him so. Later he had a 76 Deluxe 50 express that he said was origonal so I sent him 30,000.00 with a return privilege. The gun was refinished so I sent it back and he returned my cash. Haven’t bought a gun since. I believe most of his levers have been refinished. I would guess about 20% of what he list sells before they go on line.
Geeald
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