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*Update* 1927 Trapper- ATF- Worst fears realized...
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February 26, 2019 - 8:50 pm
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https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/1927-m94-trapper-15-barrel-restoration-project/#p68892

It’s unsettling, having to send your firearm to the ATF. But after having my fears calmed by people here plus others knowledgeable in this area along with extensive online research, went ahead and sent the rifle to the firearms and technology division. After almost a year, I received a letter today stating that it could not be evaluated for C&R status “as it is currently registered as an NFA firearm in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. Unfortunately, you are not the owner of record and we are unable to return the firearm.” WHAT?!! No one I spoke to and nowhere online was anything about this potential complication mentioned. I’m heartbroken… and apparently screwed. Anybody?

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February 26, 2019 - 9:04 pm
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I’d ask for the name of the “owner of record”…except the SOBs probably wouldn’t give it to you.  That person obviously transferred it (unless it was stolen) without the necessary paper work, so you’d think ATF would want to know why.

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February 26, 2019 - 11:06 pm
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It will cost you, but if you lawyer up, even if you never learn the name, they would at least be required to prove to an independent third party (ALJ or judge) that there is another owner of record and clear that issue up.  If you pursue this route, make sure all requirements are met with all filings to seek fees and costs in the event you are right.  I’m sorry this happened to you.  And thank you for sharing.  I’ve learned a lesson.

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February 26, 2019 - 11:18 pm
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Hockshop

Do panic yet. I am a retired federal special agent. (not ATF) I’m not a lawyer but have in site into working with poor decisions made by individual government employees.  

Don’t wish to turn this into a web bashing here but would be happy to share my thoughts if you wish.  If the ends well a summary could be posted for all.

PM me if you wish to visit.

Dominic

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February 27, 2019 - 5:01 am
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I would Jump on Mr. Dominics offer. insight, experience, and knowledge of the inter workings are more valuable than any attorney. Ive had a very helpful district clerk on my side this person has been more help than three previous attorneys. I can only imagine the sickening feeling you have in your stomach and I feel for you. best of luck and keep us posted. Its a damn shame your being punished by trying to do the right thing, this system is so beyond broken.

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February 27, 2019 - 7:59 am
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Reality check often a good place to start!
A sad situation for you and I do sympathize. That said… Not to blame ATF for doing their job. You’ve submitted a registerable firearm with request to transfer. Apparently, “chain of title” is required. That’s likely the law and not seeming unreasonable considering a “controlled category”. From there, what would you have of them? Returning the rifle to you, they themselves with an unlawful transfer! The real matter not of equity but of law and I do understand your feelings of trapped. But “due diligence”. When you play in regulatory territory, expected to know the rules and hazard consequences if you don’t. While I could see myself caught in similar position, blaming others and threats of legal action, seeming loss of perspective. A judge won’t suffer that loss, if even to get in the courthouse door! You’re presumptively a good guy, but strongly suggest you remain objective! Perhaps to play first within the ‘system’. If you didn’t already receive guidance concerning alternatives or administrative appellate rights from ATF pursuant to notification, why not request information concerning such. Never to suggest not to consult qualified counsel. But sometimes first steps, self-help a good place to begin. That including a self-assessment of possibility in establishing chain of title from yourself backward. Even appeals are fine, but needing hard evidence rather than speaking of “equity” alone! Burden is on you! The aside if someone offering good ‘free’, inside info concerning admin policy/procedure tips, not to ignore considering. Conversely, your own lament… “No one I’ve spoke to and nowhere on line…” Advice falsely relied upon.
Absolutely no legal advice here…
Just my take

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February 27, 2019 - 1:36 pm
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How do they (ATF) know the chain of ownership? Serial numbers are not given to the ATF when a transfer is done (NICS check, 4478 form). The only way they have the serial number is if physical copies of an FFL dealers log book are obtained. This does not happen very often. Most guns are not “registered” in any fashion with the ATF. Must be flagged as stolen with the bureau.

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February 27, 2019 - 4:46 pm
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iskra said
Not to blame ATF for doing their job.

Part of their job OUGHT to be contacting the owner of record to find out why he failed to follow the proper procedure for transferring a NFA gun. 

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February 27, 2019 - 4:51 pm
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bobbyc said
How do they (ATF) know the chain of ownership?

Because it’s registered as a NFA weapon.

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February 27, 2019 - 5:24 pm
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Very sorry to hear about this. I do like what some folks have posted. I’d definitely accept with Dominic’s invitation. Clarence’s description describes my sentiments about this situation to a T.

James

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February 28, 2019 - 12:40 am
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clarence said

iskra said
Not to blame ATF for doing their job.

Part of their job OUGHT to be contacting the owner of record to find out why he failed to follow the proper procedure for transferring a NFA gun.   

Hi Ccarence. To your remark; my retort. The old adage: Be very careful what you wish for… Lest you get it.
First, is there any information suggesting ATF isn’t with communication out to last registered owner? Likely “notice of registration suspension” pending issue resolution. What ATF has apparently not done, is point any accusing finger at our collector here. So wishing for any amount of ‘inquiry’, with potential barb appended.

Hi bobbyc. My retort to your above statement. I’d suppose ‘serial number to the subject gun constructively ‘given’, so to speak, when they are ‘given’ gun itself in hand! Don’t you think?

No legal advice here offered nor to be construed!
All here, just my take
John

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February 28, 2019 - 1:14 am
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Sorry to hear of your woes, and not of much use after the fact, but this thread reminds me of a video I watched a few weeks ago regarding procedures and things to expect/prepare for when dealing with the BATF and a potentially NFA firearm, especially regarding documentation.

 

FWIW.

Steve

 

WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.

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February 28, 2019 - 6:21 pm
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Thanks, everyone for your replies. Will be speaking with Dominic soon with all fingers crossed…

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March 1, 2019 - 2:56 pm
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I am curious how the BATF over looks the short barreled (14″) shotguns now in production and condemns a curio and relic short carbine?

RDB

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March 1, 2019 - 4:01 pm
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rogertherelic said
I am curious how the BATF over looks the short barreled (14″) shotguns now in production and condemns a curio and relic short carbine?

RDB  

I believe that is because they maybe categorized as Pistols, and/or the overall length matters as well. Its just like those new production Mare’s Leg made by Uberti, Rossi, and Henry. They’re all technically Pistols!

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 1, 2019 - 7:06 pm
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Well rogertherelic, as one ‘relic’ to another…
Lacking entirely Mavericks expertise and accepting his perspective as valid. Yet offering another perspective as you purport to contrast situations in regulatory context. First supposing you need to define your application of the term ‘overlooking’. But a ‘for instance’. If a NFA regulated item being transferred is a new weapon and any/all necessary documentation in order, a fundamentally different situation from documents of official record in direct & relevant conflict with purported registration request information submitted. Hope that also offers a response to your question as posed. In ‘real life’ context here, apparently “NFA non-regulated weapon”, issue not arising.

The side note quite admittedly, well beyond my league here on actual NFA procedural matters/requirements. No experience/expertise – no pretense!
I an concerned about appearance of ATF proponent/Forum villain here. I’m not and kindly don’t shoot the messenger! Rather tackling critical questions in a form of Socratic ‘hashing out’, good for defining; separating factual issues from ‘chaff & flak’. Moving toward understanding requisite to finding answers.
All here, just my take.

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March 1, 2019 - 11:30 pm
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My comments were directed about “Newly Produced” items, and have nothing in regards to the antique arms and/or Curios & Relics that are applicable to registration.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 2, 2019 - 1:34 pm
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Generally, we as collectors ask that the ATF to exempt rifles/carbines with barrels less than 16 inches form the National Firearms Act (NFA); meaning that the NFA rules don’t apply.  Sounds like this particular carbine had been registered as an NFA firearm,  kinda the same as a machine gun getting registered. Once it’s an NFA firearm, I’m not sure how you change it’s classification…sort of once it’s a machine gun, it’s always a machine gun…in the eyes of the ATF.

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March 2, 2019 - 2:48 pm
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Mike Hunter said
Generally, we as collectors ask that the ATF to exempt rifles/carbines with barrels less than 16 inches form the National Firearms Act (NFA); meaning that the NFA rules don’t apply.  Sounds like this particular carbine had been registered as an NFA firearm,  kinda the same as a machine gun getting registered. Once it’s an NFA firearm, I’m not sure how you change it’s classification…sort of once it’s a machine gun, it’s always a machine gun…in the eyes of the ATF.  

I agree completely with your thoughts Mike.  One could only guess as to why it was origianlly registered as an NFA firearm rather than being exempted and designated C&R eligible.  It’s likely that someone was trying to do the right thing by registering it and mistakenly registered it as an NFA firearm, not knowing that it could be exempted.  There may be a silver lining if the father of the person whom HockShop bought it from originally registered the gun, it may still be registered in his name.  If the son is the legal heir to the gun, he may be able to straighten it out and either transfer it or have it evaluated for an NFA exemption.  I would certainly ask him to contact BATFE to inquire as to whether the rifle is registered to his father.  According to the Forgotten Weapons video posted by SuperGimp, BATFE will release information on an NFA registered firearm to a legal heir.  It’d be worth a try.  Would be a sad day if an original trapper were destroyed. Cry

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March 2, 2019 - 2:54 pm
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Mike Hunter said
Generally, we as collectors ask that the ATF to exempt rifles/carbines with barrels less than 16 inches form the National Firearms Act (NFA); meaning that the NFA rules don’t apply.  Sounds like this particular carbine had been registered as an NFA firearm,  kinda the same as a machine gun getting registered. Once it’s an NFA firearm, I’m not sure how you change it’s classification…sort of once it’s a machine gun, it’s always a machine gun…in the eyes of the ATF.  

I think this is exactly what has happened.  

Dominic

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