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Turnbull (or others) Records
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September 21, 2022 - 7:01 pm
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All,

I am looking at a Model 1886 Carbine to buy. It would be in “Like New Condition”. So, I am not sure if it real or is it Memorex? That condition in an antique Winchester is very rare indeed and even more so for a carbine. I have checked it against all the criteria I can find including Bert’s tutorial on this site. I have been collection for 35+ years but have handled a very few (3-4) really nicely reconditioned guns. I am no expert in that area of assessment. To my knowledge I don’t live near a 1873man or a clarence type guy to show this gun to. My wife came up with another idea that is worth pursuing. So……
 
My questions are:
1. Do restoration companies (Turnbull and others?) keep record of guns they have worked on (I would assume so)?
2. If so, will/do they provide that information if requested?
3. Any other thoughts?
Cheers Wink
Kirk
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September 21, 2022 - 7:56 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said

 

My questions are:

1. Do restoration companies (Turnbull and others?) keep record of guns they have worked on (I would assume so)?
2. If so, will/do they provide that information if requested?
3. Any other thoughts?
Cheers Wink
Kirk

  

Turnbull probably does, so you have nothing to loose by giving him a call.  However, his is not the only shop capable of such work.  Safest thing to do is assume that if it looks too good to be true it’s probably a restoration–which is nothing to despise if it’s priced accordingly; there are folks who collect Turnbull restorations.

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September 21, 2022 - 9:10 pm
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Clarence- Thanks I will give it a try as you say nothing to lose. To a point you raised: What would an 1886 Carbine, plain Jane, restored all the way be reasonably be priced at?

Cheers

Kirk

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September 21, 2022 - 10:32 pm
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I don’t know the answer to your question, but caliber would be important in any value assessment.

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September 21, 2022 - 10:36 pm
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Kirk,

  I am sure that Doug Turnbull keeps a record of the rifles reworked by them.  Good to call and ask if this by serial number was reworked.

  You can get some ideas of the values of SOLD Turnbull restored rifles by reviewing past sales.  I seem to recall RIA sold several of his restored rifles in the past couple of years.  My memory isn’t good enough to come up with prices, but I do remember being surprised they sold as low as they did.  In addition I have seen a couple of restored, case colored rifles priced rather high, but do not know if they sold and if so at what prices.  Sorry I can’t give a better answer, and it includes a need to go back in time to see old sales prices at RIA.  Maybe other sites for auctions can also help if you wish to do the research.  Tim

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September 21, 2022 - 10:38 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
 What would an 1886 Carbine, plain Jane, restored all the way be reasonably be priced at?

  

I know nothing about such high-dollar guns, but if Turnbull did the work, I think his charges alone would probably approach $5000. 

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September 21, 2022 - 10:48 pm
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In the 90’s Rogers Restorations was getting $3500 for a plain blued 73 complete restoration and $5000 is about 20 year old pricing on a complete restore which would be new wood, barrel and tube. The last prices I heard a few years ago was $7500. The price can vary by the grade of the wood used and if it had to be checkered.

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September 22, 2022 - 1:16 am
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1873man said  The price can vary by the grade of the wood used and if it had to be checkered.
Bob

  

The deep-pockets who commission such restorations usually insist on fancier wood than the factory would have used.  They’re merely pleasing themselves, not attempting to fool anybody, but if the gun changes hands, it becomes a different story.

Kirk, what’s the price of the gun you’ve been talking about?

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September 22, 2022 - 4:04 pm
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1873man said
In the 90’s Rogers Restorations was getting $3500 for a plain blued 73 complete restoration and $5000 is about 20 year old pricing on a complete restore which would be new wood, barrel and tube. The last prices I heard a few years ago was $7500. The price can vary by the grade of the wood used and if it had to be checkered.

Bob

  

I agree with Bob.  I used to hang out at Roger’s shop and my traveling partner was Walt Hallstein.  Walt dealt with a lot of restorations.  The cost to restore a gun can easily be $7000.  A lot depends on what you start with and how fancy you want the gun. Many times all that is needed to do a restoration is the receiver. Everything else is either new or restored.  I used to pick for Walt.  If I found a very fancy gun in poor condition that could qualify for a restoration he would try to buy it.

Roger did mark his guns but I have forgot where?  It is not in plain sight.  I know he kept records but when he dissapeared so did his records.  I have been trying to get Walt’s records or at least access to them but no luck so far.

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September 22, 2022 - 4:31 pm
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Rogers marked his guns on the right side of the tang but I don’t recall upper or lower with  R’r  He would not mark the gun if you asked him to. A guy brought a Rogers gun into a local show to sell it and it was a great looking blued second model. Rogers did have some tells if you knew where to look and I told the guy it was restored by Rogers and the guy fanatically denied it. I offered him $3500 for it since that was the going price back then for a Rogers restore and by the end of the show he took me up on the offer. I told I knew it was a restored and even after the deal was done he kept denying it. I told to hang on and I will pull the stock and show him but he wanted to get out of there. He left and I pulled the stock and there his mark was.

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September 22, 2022 - 10:57 pm
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Clarence the asking price is $10K. The wood is not special nor is it checkered. The only ware on the gun is the two high points on the butt plate. Why would someone go to the expense of a restoration of an 1886 with No special features? DOM is 1893 and it is a cal. 50X nothing special.

Bob, Chuck and Tim thanks for your input.

Cheers

Kirk

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September 22, 2022 - 11:49 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
 Why would someone go to the expense of a restoration of an 1886 with No special features?

Kirk

  

The plain wood is a very good sign, but don’t believe it’s safe to assume restorations are confined to guns with special features.  Any trail of provenance?

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September 23, 2022 - 10:41 am
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With a phone call Turnbull will tell you if they did restoration work on a gun. 

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September 23, 2022 - 6:10 pm
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1873man said
Rogers marked his guns on the right side of the tang but I don’t recall upper or lower with  R’r  He would not mark the gun if you asked him to. A guy brought a Rogers gun into a local show to sell it and it was a great looking blued second model. Rogers did have some tells if you knew where to look and I told the guy it was restored by Rogers and the guy fanatically denied it. I offered him $3500 for it since that was the going price back then for a Rogers restore and by the end of the show he took me up on the offer. I told I knew it was a restored and even after the deal was done he kept denying it. I told to hang on and I will pull the stock and show him but he wanted to get out of there. He left and I pulled the stock and there his mark was.

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Thanks Bob.  TR says one of Roger’s roll dies has a mistake too. I can spot a Roger’s gun just because of the stain.

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September 23, 2022 - 6:16 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
Clarence the asking price is $10K. The wood is not special nor is it checkered. The only ware on the gun is the two high points on the butt plate. Why would someone go to the expense of a restoration of an 1886 with No special features? DOM is 1893 and it is a cal. 50X nothing special.

Bob, Chuck and Tim thanks for your input.

Cheers

Kirk

  

Who knows why anyone would do anything?  Roger and Turnbull are only 2 of a handful that can restore Winchesters to almost perfect condition. No one that I know of can fake the patina in the blue.  Old guns will show brown spots in the blue of the barrel. That’s why people carry the LED flashlights.  These will also show patches of cold blue too.

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September 23, 2022 - 7:11 pm
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Chuck said

TR says one of Roger’s roll dies has a mistake too.  

Anybody here old enough to remember Sonny France?  He was a major supplier of repro Win brls 40 or so yrs ago.  I saw one of his masterpieces in .50 that had been installed on a totally rebuilt, extra fancy wood, ’86 while it was still in the shop of the smith who did the work.  Because the brld action was in a vise on a high bench with a light over it, I could read the markings very clearly, & saw that “Manufactured” was misspelled!  Think the second “u” was left out, or something similar.  When I said “hey, come over & see this,” the smith said “I don’t believe it”…until he looked closely at it.  I also knew the dealer who had the work done, & know that it later sold at a show for Big Dough. Under the lighting conditions at most shows, it would never have been noticed, esp when the buyer was preoccupied with admiring the gorgeous wood.

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September 24, 2022 - 7:18 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
Clarence the asking price is $10K. The wood is not special nor is it checkered. The only ware on the gun is the two high points on the butt plate. Why would someone go to the expense of a restoration of an 1886 with No special features? DOM is 1893 and it is a cal. 50X nothing special.

Bob, Chuck and Tim thanks for your input.

Cheers

Kirk

  

“In my book” a M1886 carbine in .50 Express fits easily into the, “something special” category.  

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September 25, 2022 - 5:19 pm
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I was interested in a 73 at RIA one time a few years ago.  The description said it had been professionally restored but did not say by who.  I called Turnbull to see if they had restored it and gave the lady on the phone the serial # and she looked it up and said they did not restore it.  Nice folks and just a phone call away.

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September 29, 2022 - 12:00 am
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Roger’s Restorations rifle have been mentioned in this thread.  I ran into this ’73 presently on gunbroker:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/947286021

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September 29, 2022 - 4:20 pm
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Last night Walt Hallstein’s wife called me about another subject.  I did bug her again about going through his records to record the guns he had Roger work on.  She said I’m on her list of things to do. I know she is being very cautious about his records. I assume the monetary side.  I did explain that I’ve been through his books many times.  He carried 3 ledgers with him at all of the gun shows.

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