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This M1892 looks refinished. Am I wrong?
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April 10, 2019 - 3:14 pm
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I’ve been looking for a M1892 to add to my humble collection and this came up in my search. It clearly looks refinished to me, based on the thin roll stamps. Am I wrong?

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/808324273

 

Steve

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April 10, 2019 - 3:27 pm
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Though it always pays to be skeptical, I think maybe you are wrong in this particular case.  Wood to metal fit is perfect, with no staining to edges as often seen on refinished wood.  Furthermore, there are enough minor handling marks to make it look “right” to me. CC looks original to me. Anyway, considering the number of ignorant fools bidding on GB, you can be sure it’s going to sell for a near mint gun, whether it is or not.

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April 10, 2019 - 4:40 pm
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This one looks good!  And antique as well.  The photographs have a great deal of light reflection which sometimes gives the illusion of being refinished, but, fortunately, this is not the case.  Horizontal forging marks on the receiver are a good sign and a strong indicator of originality.  Good wood to metal fit, as previously mentioned. 

It will be interesting to see what this brings, in the hyper inflated price point of Gunbroker.  Should you bid on it, just be aware .32-20 is one of the less desirable calibers.

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April 10, 2019 - 5:17 pm
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Thanks guys. Y’all have stricken the fear of god in me regarding fakes and I think I’ve come to assume everything is fake until proven otherwise. 

That one will probably exceed my budget anyway. This is actually the one I’ve had my eye on as it may be more approachable. I’d like a “good” example of an M1892 that I could possibly load for and shoot. 

http://www.antiqueguns.com/index.php/view-auctions/categories/buffalo-hunter-indian-war-old-west/1860-1898-henry-winchester-rifles/page-592

Curious on your opinion on this one.

 

Thanks. 

Steve

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April 10, 2019 - 5:30 pm
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This one looks OK but the pictures would be better if there were more close ups.  Contact Rob Robles and see if he would give you the serial #.

A little oil on the wood would go a long way to cover up the light spots.   I would watch both guns.  I am not a big fan of half magazines.

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April 10, 2019 - 5:51 pm
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supergimp said
Y’all have stricken the fear of god in me regarding fakes and I think I’ve come to assume everything is fake until proven otherwise. Steve  

A wise attitude in this Age of Fakery!

Metal on the 2nd one looks legit to me, but note the poor wood to metal fit of the upper tang.  Maybe this could be caused by shrinkage, if an inadequately seasoned blank had been used, but it’s suspicious.

Great problem with any auction is that you’re bidding against folks (often with deep pockets) who aren’t suspicious or observant of details like this.

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April 10, 2019 - 6:08 pm
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clarence said

supergimp said
Y’all have stricken the fear of god in me regarding fakes and I think I’ve come to assume everything is fake until proven otherwise. Steve  

A wise attitude in this Age of Fakery!

Metal on the 2nd one looks legit to me, but note the poor wood to metal fit of the upper tang.  Maybe this could be caused by shrinkage, if an inadequately seasoned blank had been used, but it’s suspicious.

Great problem with any auction is that you’re bidding against folks (often with deep pockets) who aren’t suspicious or observant of details like this.  

clarence said

supergimp said
Y’all have stricken the fear of god in me regarding fakes and I think I’ve come to assume everything is fake until proven otherwise. Steve  

A wise attitude in this Age of Fakery!

Metal on the 2nd one looks legit to me, but note the poor wood to metal fit of the upper tang.  Maybe this could be caused by shrinkage, if an inadequately seasoned blank had been used, but it’s suspicious.

Great problem with any auction is that you’re bidding against folks (often with deep pockets) who aren’t suspicious or observant of details like this.  

After what you said I looked at the upper tang area.  The metal does seem a little high.  Another question for Rob.  He has been doing this stuff for years so he knows what to look for.  Sometime the tang screw isn’t tight or the tang is slightly bent.  I have had to put a clamp on the tang then tighten the screw to pull it all the way down.  Should not be proud..

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April 10, 2019 - 7:48 pm
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Chuck said

Sometime the tang screw isn’t tight or the tang is slightly bent.  I have had to put a clamp on the tang then tighten the screw to pull it all the way down.  Should not be proud..  


Chuck said

Loose screw may explain it–because, otherwise, the general wear & patina of wood matches that of metal.

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April 10, 2019 - 9:16 pm
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Hello,

The first rifle posted by supergimp is beautiful and 100% original based on all the photos I have seen of it.  I would buy it, no problem of it being 32 WCF or not.  I have no preconceive notion of the inferiority of the 32 WCF caliber.  I do have to laugh at all of the trash talking of GB and their high prices.  The buyers are just people who want to buy a gun and assuming they have illicit “deep pockets” and have no knowledge is an unfounded assumption.  I have bought and sold guns on GB and I certainly don’t think any have been way out of line.  Complaining about a gun selling for too much corresponds to “more than I can afford” but “wish they would pay for mine.”

The butt stock on the second rifle has clearly been sanded at some point.  I would ask for more photos in better light and the serial number.

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April 10, 2019 - 10:32 pm
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twobit said
 I do have to laugh at all of the trash talking of GB and their high prices.  

Michael  

I too am a little perplexed about GB and high prices.  There have been a lot of posts about how it’s a buyer’s market and guns aren’t getting what they should.  Which is it?

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April 11, 2019 - 12:25 am
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Huck Riley said

I too am a little perplexed about GB and high prices.  There have been a lot of posts about how it’s a buyer’s market and guns aren’t getting what they should.  Which is it?  

In sensible venues, such as high end auction houses, reputable dealers, and old timers wanting to sell their collections, or, as posted in the Classifieds section of this forum, it’s a buyer’s market, and values other than the very best, have trended downwards.

On Gunbroker, due to the ease of finding stuff, the large audience, possibly misrepresented items, and eager and undereducated buyers, items often sell for illogically elevated prices, such that a buyer would be lucky to get out of it what they have into it.  However, I should clearly state that very few items I purchase do I buy anymore unless there’s some “meat on the table”.

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April 11, 2019 - 11:13 am
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supergimp said
Thanks guys. Y’all have stricken the fear of god in me regarding fakes and I think I’ve come to assume everything is fake until proven otherwise. 

That one will probably exceed my budget anyway. This is actually the one I’ve had my eye on as it may be more approachable. I’d like a “good” example of an M1892 that I could possibly load for and shoot. 

http://www.antiqueguns.com/index.php/view-auctions/categories/buffalo-hunter-indian-war-old-west/1860-1898-henry-winchester-rifles/page-592

Curious on your opinion on this one.

 

Thanks. 

Steve  

Hello Steve,

That rifle was just recently sold at auction at RIA in February as lot #6036.  The rear barrel sight is not original to the gun.  The rifle was actually an 1893 vintage rifle not a “first year gun.”  https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/1032/6036/antique-first-year-production-winchester-model-1892-rifle    It would have been a darn good purchase for the RIA closing price!

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April 11, 2019 - 1:29 pm
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Thanks Michael.

This is why I love WACA. It has rolled over once already with no bids on Robles’ auction. Maybe I’ll just keep an eye and see if it shows up in one of his “Blowouts” emails. 

 

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April 11, 2019 - 2:13 pm
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supergimp said
Thanks Michael.

This is why I love WACA. It has rolled over once already with no bids on Robles’ auction. Maybe I’ll just keep an eye and see if it shows up in one of his “Blowouts” emails. 

 

Steve  

Steve,

LOTS and LOTS of the “reputable dealers” do nothing more than buy guns from the large auction houses and then proceed to mark them up A LOT and sell them to others on down the food chain.  This also happens very frequently on Gunbroker.com also.  I have found sellers there who may buy 6 rifles from the same auction and then in a month they are all re-listed with opening bids 30 to 80% higher than selling bid at auction.  So one has to ask what is the difference between supposed “reputable dealers” and some guy doing the exact same practice on GB?  Darn little in my mind.

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April 11, 2019 - 2:39 pm
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Makes sense. I suppose, as mentioned, the wide reach of GB increases exposure and thus chance of flipping for a profit. And, to that end, dealers aren’t in it to lose money so there’s no surprises there. 

I guess all you can do is look at things one at a time, evaluate and engage or move on. I’ve gotten some deals on GB (one thanks to you, Michael!) and passed on countless opportunities that didn’t feel right or ran away from me. 

We don’t have much of a local market near me in Los Angeles and that Robles M1892 would sell in my LGS for 1.5-2x the current opening price so whether something is “worth it” or not is relative. 

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April 12, 2019 - 12:31 am
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twobit said

Steve,

LOTS and LOTS of the “reputable dealers” do nothing more than buy guns from the large auction houses and then proceed to mark them up A LOT and sell them to others on down the food chain.  This also happens very frequently on Gunbroker.com also.  

Isn’t that–hyper-elevated GB prices–what I & mcrvs alluded to above?   Which, it seemed to me (though I could be wrong), you took exception to.

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April 12, 2019 - 12:45 pm
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clarence said

Isn’t that–hyper-elevated GB prices–what I & mcrvs alluded to above?   Which, it seemed to me (though I could be wrong), you took exception to.  

Good morning Clarence,

Let me clarify my position.  The same “sensible venues” exist at an auction and at GB for penny start auctions.  I highly doubt that the clientele viewing either is all that different or mutually exclusive.  Especially considering the fact that the sensible venue large auction houses all have online catalogs and will very happily take phone bids for lots.  That is how I use them.

I do not know with certainty the number of reputable dealers who sell at auction houses but based on my survey efforts I absolutely know that they LOVE to buy items there and then mark them up for sale on their websites.  I see it all the time.  It is how these guys make a living.  And there is apparently a strong enough market for those inflated prices compared to what the same gun sold for just a few months earlier.

Are there “hyper inflated” prices on GB?  Absolutely.  Especially the listings with for example an opening bid of $1800 and “no reserve”  I just ignore them and move along.  That is that seller business and his desire.   I would also classify many dealers prices in the same category.  Many of these may be looking for the same sort of buyer who has a fair amount of $$ and less time to tire kick to come along and buy.  I hope when I sell my rifles that a few of them show up at my door!

I don’t have any bones to pick with GB or many of the sellers there.  They really are no different than the large auction houses.  They just operate with MUCH LOWER overhead.  That obviously excludes the guys selling fakes.  Them, I hate!!  GB, dealers websites, and the auction house on line sales have opened up a universe of opportunity and access to guns we never had just 25 years ago.  You can see more inventory now in a day at the keyboard than you would have spent in a year running around to gun shows and looking at those hyper inflated prices!

All the best

Michael

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April 19, 2019 - 12:38 pm
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supergimp said
I’ve been looking for a M1892 to add to my humble collection and this came up in my search. It clearly looks refinished to me, based on the thin roll stamps. Am I wrong?

https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/808324273

 

Steve  

Steve,

You were doing OK for a little bit!  Sorry that you did not get it.  That is a fine rifle.

Michael

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April 19, 2019 - 1:24 pm
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Thanks for the condolences. I should have kept going.a little further but sometimes that little voice inside your head jumps in and reminds you you’re in the middle of a home remodel. Pesky life responsibilities. 

Ill find an 1892 eventually. 

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April 19, 2019 - 1:32 pm
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supergimp said
Thanks for the condolences. I should have kept going.a little further but sometimes that little voice inside your head jumps in and reminds you you’re in the middle of a home remodel. Pesky life responsibilities. 

Ill find an 1892 eventually. 

Steve  

Steve,

You might not have to look too far.  I just purchased a rifle from this seller.  He typically has some nice rifles as this one shows.  https://www.gunbroker.com/item/806848245

Michael

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