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FromTheWoods;
I’m working on it, but it’s not as easy as it might seem. I’ll keep plugging along on my thing though. In the end I’ll probably wind up and donate it to either the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York or the NRA Museum system, where it has been on loan since 2010. However until that end, I’ll continue trying to sell it, after all there’s an old Alfa Romeo I found that I must have before the next B.J. auction in Scottsdale.
Apache (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
Larry,
Are the auctions trying to “blow off your 66 carbine”? I hate to say it, but have you contacted RIA Julia? What Alfa has you excited? Is this a mid life event?Ha. ha. Barrett-Jackson has turned into a American muscle car auction. Alfas do now sell there for big bucks, unless it is very special. There are a lot of other big time car auctions in your area.
Walter
Just Saying…………….. Richard Ellis showed me this rifle about 25 years ago. It was at a show but can’t remember which one (maybe Winter Vegas or Denver). At that time, there was no gold watch, provenance or engraved barrel associated with the rifle. Then of course, it may have been a different Model 1886, serial no. 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WACA Life Benefactor Member
NRA Life Member
Online
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Rick Hill said
Just Saying…………….. Richard Ellis showed me this rifle about 25 years ago. It was at a show but can’t remember which one (maybe Winter Vegas or Denver). At that time, there was no gold watch, provenance or engraved barrel associated with the rifle. Then of course, it may have been a different Model 1886, serial no. 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!! Are you SERIOUS!!!
I guess I took it for granted that the story was true, but, once again, buy the gun, NOT the story! This proves, maybe, that one is better off sticking to above average firearms with condition and provenance, rather than chasing the best of the best.
Too much fraud and deceit, I think!
Bert H. said
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
Is there a copy of a factory letter in all that stuff?
Bert H. said
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
Bert,
It does not letter with the engraving.
wolfbait said
Bert H. said
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
Is there a copy of a factory letter in all that stuff?
I don’t know… I did not take the time to read it all. I focused on the actual pictures of the rifle and watch, and the auction description write-up.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
The watch was apparently sold separately in 1982, and later mated to the rifle. Chernoff stated the watch was purchased from a descendant. No mention of a rifle. A lot to look through, a lot of fluff about the history of the people involved, but I do not see any documented provenance on the rifle. If this is 1886 #1 you would think collectors would have knowledge of its past ownership over time. And regarding the rifle, RIA does say “factory inscription” and “factory presentation”.
I didn’t see a letter as noted. For anyone interested, here is a convenient link to the catalog entry and lots of pictures of “documentation.”
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Okay, once you get past the “hype” of this being Winchester Model 1886 serial number 1, complete with watch and a connection to Geronimo, and start to think about it, there are a few “holes”, not evident to me until a few hours ago when I looked at the big picture when it was suggested that there might be some stretching of the truth here.
For one, the watch was manufactured by E Howard & Co, Boston, Massachusetts. This was not a manufacturer of high end watches; it’s products tended to be more pedestrian. Also, $1,000 in 1886 was more than a year’s wages. This does not present as a watch that would be worth more than a year’s wages. For a watch to present as such, I would expect it to contain more than a standard dial and a second hand dial, be much more ornate, likely the work of Tiffany or a prominent European watchmaker, etc.
By the way, I looked up prices in my old catalogs. In this era an 1886 rifle was $14. The highest grade “Railroad Special” pocket watch in the highest grade elaborately engraved solid gold case with the most expensive solid gold chain was $80. The casing on this watch is quite plain.
Interesting stuff… keep up the detective work! I was having a real hard time with the “$1,000” value of the watch in trhe year 1885.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. and All;
I know the whereabouts of a solid GOLD Elgin Hunters watch, fully engraved with an Old Miner Diamond, cir. 1886 – 1890 in good working order that I think might be inscribed as follows “To My Good Friend and Comrade in Arms SITTING BULL S. on your Birthday. Your Good Friend and Fishing Buddy, GOYATHLAY” (GERONIMO)!!!! Naturally all will be 100% authentic and correct. (Spelling) You can TRUST ME!!!!! If interested let me know how many.
Apache (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
Question: Has anyone from WACA sent a serial # request to Cody for this rifle?
Bert H. said
wolfbait said
Bert H. said
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
Is there a copy of a factory letter in all that stuff?
I don’t know… I did not take the time to read it all. I focused on the actual pictures of the rifle and watch, and the auction description write-up.
Austin\
Bert H. said
Rick,
RIA indicated that it letters with the engraved barrel? I now wonder what the real truth is.
Bert
Bert,
It does not letter with the engraving.
Austin’s Guns, You state that it does not letter with the engraving. Do you have a copy of the letter or serial number search?
I do not have a copy. I asked to see a letter when reviewing the rifle, they did not have one. Later, I was speaking with a good friend of mine who is a model 1886 historian, who has a copy of the ledger page including serial number 1. He confirmed it does no mention engraving.
If RIA did not have a factory letter on this gun, that is a reason to Run, Run away no mater what.
Walter
I too was wondering about the supposed letter of authentication and have re-read the write up several times. I cannot find anywhere that RIA states that a letter of authentication is included. What they do state is that:
“Included with this group is a copy of a letter from Winchester Repeating Arms to Lieutenant Albee signed by T.S. Bennett. The letter discusses testing and purchase of Winchester-Hotchkiss Bolt Action Rifles by the Army and mentions a report by Capt. Lawton.”
As I see it they are only implying that Albee had connections with Winchester and probably used these to obtain a newly released rifle model with serial number 1. If this is so it makes no difference who engraved the gun prior to presentation. It would seem this is simply a gift from one officer to another and the giver added a bit of gravitas to his gift by obtaining the first one ever manufactured before having it engraved.
This, of course, assumes that the rifle was engraved at Albee’s instigation and that he presented it to Lawton and that it is not some engraving done years (or a century) later.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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