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Looking through the photos of the “million dollar 86” that sold recently, I noticed that the forearm wood had a significant gap between it and the receiver. https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/74/7/no-1-engraved-winchester-model-1886-express-rifle
Occasionally, I have noticed a similar gap in the forearm wood when extra fancy wood is involved (the grain does not merely run straight, but has swirls). I have oak hardwood floors in our house and notice that there is virtually no shrinkage in the winter lengthwise, along the grain, but there is some width-wise. It seems to me, therefore, that this shrinkage of extra fancy forearm stocks that sometimes occurs, may be due to the complex grain that makes the wood “fancy” in the first place. It does not affect the buttstock, since it can expand or shrink and the buttplate merely follows along.
Has anyone else noticed this, and how prevalent is this with 100 year-old forearms that are made from fancy wood with a lot of interesting swirls in the grain?
win38-55, I have had the same problem on my Deluxe grade Winchesters in the past. I try to keep the humidity at 50%, this helps. Dry prevents rust but shrinks wood, especially forearms with fancy wood. Years ago I kept my guns in a gun safe with a Golden Rod and dehydrater crystals, they had shrinkage problems, it was hard to maintain 50% humidity. T/R
win38-55 said
It seems to me, therefore, that this shrinkage of extra fancy forearm stocks that sometimes occurs, may be due to the complex grain that makes the wood “fancy” in the first place.
Certainly it is, & mere shrinkage is by no means the worst that can happen–it can also crack & split without any apparent cause, like a hard knock.
I am always leery of wood that appears to shrink longways. In many cases it is caused by an owner replacing the wood with a smaller piece. I have a few deluxe guns and the wood has never shrunk in this way. I live in a dry climate and I use a golden rod too. Fancy wood does crack, especially in the wrist area. That’s why the grain should be straight in the wrist area when selecting a piece of fancy wood.
Chuck said
I am always leery of wood that appears to shrink longways. In many cases it is caused by an owner replacing the wood with a smaller piece. I have a few deluxe guns and the wood has never shrunk in this way. I live in a dry climate and I use a golden rod too. Fancy wood does crack, especially in the wrist area. That’s why the grain should be straight in the wrist area when selecting a piece of fancy wood.
Chuck, are you saying that you think the forearm on that “million dollar 86” has been replaced? I find it difficult to believe it is a replacement, but there is a substantial gap one can see in the photos. I should also add that I have a Model 1894 38-55 with deluxe, checkered wood and in the winter when my hardwood floors show a bit of a gap here and there (I live in Canada where things can get very dry in the house in the winter), the forearm in mid-winter has a slight movement back and forth, though nothing like the million dollar 86. Right now, near the end of the summer, where my humidity in the house is much higher at 50%, the forearm is tight with absolutely no movement. None of my other straight grained Winchester forearms do that, which makes me think that fancy wood, depending upon how non-straight the grain is, can shrink more than plain, straight-grained wood.
The forearm cap tenon is not always drill and taped in the center, making the part less than symmetrical. If you reverse it the forearm could get tighter or looser depending on how concentric it was drilled and taped. They sell them undrilled after market, making it possible to correct this condition. I have several original tenons I have bought at gun shows just for that purpose. The “Million Dollar Gun” could have the tenon reversed? T/R
TR said
The forearm cap tenon is not always drill and taped in the center, making the part less than symmetrical. If you reverse it the forearm could get tighter or looser depending on how concentric it was drilled and taped. They sell them undrilled after market, making it possible to correct this condition. I have several original tenons I have bought at gun shows just for that purpose. The “Million Dollar Gun” could have the tenon reversed? T/R
Yes, I have encountered that when I have removed the forearm on old Winchesters. I now make a note which is the “front” of the tenon. In the case of the million dollar 86, I would expect Winchester to have gotten it right with such a high special order rifle. Also, the gap is huge, much larger than the slight off centre hole sometimes found on the tenon. I also have doubts that anyone would want to take apart such a high condition rifle and then reassemble the tenon in the wrong direction. If that gun were mine, I wouldn’t let a screwdriver come within a half mile of it. (to exaggerate slightly).
win38-55, It’s a takedown, it’s easy to remove the magazine tube, you only turn two very expensive screws. I’m sure Winchester was not the last to clean the gun. We will never know if it’s switched, just a possibility. I’m sure Winchester did not assemble the gun with a gap between the wood and the metal, so was it shrinkage or Bubba? T/R
I would tend to rule out Bubba. It would take a very highly skilled craftsman to create a replacement forearm for that rifle …. the kind of craftsman that isn’t likely to botch up the length of the forearm. For that reason, I’d say the forearm is original, it left the factory nice and tight for the humidity level that was in Connecticut at that time of year, but has spent a considerable amount of time in a drier location and, due to the fancy grain not being plain straight, has been somewhat susceptible to shrinkage to the extent shown in the photo.
win38-55 said
Chuck said
I am always leery of wood that appears to shrink longways. In many cases it is caused by an owner replacing the wood with a smaller piece. I have a few deluxe guns and the wood has never shrunk in this way. I live in a dry climate and I use a golden rod too. Fancy wood does crack, especially in the wrist area. That’s why the grain should be straight in the wrist area when selecting a piece of fancy wood.Chuck, are you saying that you think the forearm on that “million dollar 86” has been replaced? I find it difficult to believe it is a replacement, but there is a substantial gap one can see in the photos. I should also add that I have a Model 1894 38-55 with deluxe, checkered wood and in the winter when my hardwood floors show a bit of a gap here and there (I live in Canada where things can get very dry in the house in the winter), the forearm in mid-winter has a slight movement back and forth, though nothing like the million dollar 86. Right now, near the end of the summer, where my humidity in the house is much higher at 50%, the forearm is tight with absolutely no movement. None of my other straight grained Winchester forearms do that, which makes me think that fancy wood, depending upon how non-straight the grain is, can shrink more than plain, straight-grained wood.
I can’t be sure of anything that I haven’t actually held in my hands. I am sure that when Winchester fitted the wood on all their guns there were no gaps. Special care would have been taken on a gun of this quality. Remember, all these guns were hand fitted.
Are you sure this gun actually sold? If so prove it. When this type of money is concerned anything is possible. You need to research some of the gun dealers who have been prosecuted in the past. Many times they work together to commit fraud. I am not saying that RI did anything wrong but many have. There is a lot of money to be made off people that have this type of money and don’t know guns.
If the gun wasn’t a take-down I’d be concerned. I’ve seen several take-downs like this, and imagine this to be somewhat common.
I did a quick search. The same noticeable gap can be seen on one of LeRoy Merz’s current offerings.
I know I’ve seen this elsewhere on other rifles as well.
I will also add, although I found the price of the recent RIA 86 to be somewhat amazing. I believe the gun itself is genuine in all aspects. Its a very well known piece and has been highly publicized for a while now, at least 25 years (I’m not exactly sure).
I also do wonder how much ounces of gold and platinum a person would need to make a new reproduction of the No. 1 Engraving. I believe Turnbull has made such reproductions of each one of the engraving types in the 1897 Catalog. But if I recall correctly the No. 1 engraving they made, only had gold inlay in it, and not the platinum also.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
If the gun wasn’t a take-down I’d be concerned. I’ve seen several take-downs like this, and imagine this to be somewhat common.I did a quick search. The same noticeable gap can be seen on one of LeRoy Merz’s current offerings.
I know I’ve seen this elsewhere on other rifles as well.
I will also add, although I found the price of the recent RIA 86 to be somewhat amazing. I believe the gun itself is genuine in all aspects. Its a very well known piece and has been highly publicized for a while now, at least 25 years (I’m not exactly sure).
I also do wonder how much ounces of gold and platinum a person would need to make a new reproduction of the No. 1 Engraving. I believe Turnbull has made such reproductions of each one of the engraving types in the 1897 Catalog. But if I recall correctly the No. 1 engraving they made, only had gold inlay in it, and not the platinum also.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I realize this is tangential, but thoughts on the filled in dovetail on the underside of the barrel on Leroy’s rifle?
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