Avatar
Please consider registering
Guest
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Register Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Rio Conchos Winchester
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
May 21, 2022 - 2:36 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Screen-Shot-2022-05-20-at-10.42.43-AM.pngImage EnlargerScreen-Shot-2022-05-22-at-7.24.43-AM.pngImage EnlargerIn the 1964 Western film, Rio Conchos, Richard Boone’s character uses an 1873 Winchester rifle with a half magazine, shortened barrel, and a barrel band (see photos). My understanding is that only 1873 saddle ring carbines (and muskets) had barrel bands, but the barrel on Boone’s rifle is not a carbine barrel. Has anyone ever seen one like this before?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3509
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
May 21, 2022 - 8:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

I don’t see any pictures?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
May 22, 2022 - 11:25 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

My bad. Operator error. Sorry. You should see them now.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1296
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
4
May 22, 2022 - 11:54 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

   It looks like Hollywood’s attempt to make a rifle look like a carbine. T/R

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3098
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
May 22, 2022 - 12:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

TR said
   It looks like Hollywood’s attempt to make a rifle look like a carbine. T/R

  

Hollywood did a lot of that.  I seem to recall many episodes of Bonanza where a few of the Cartwrights would use  a ’73 or ’92 with no forearm, in an apparent attempt to resemble a Henry rifle.  Also, there was that batch (a fairly large number) of ’92 Winchesters with MGM markings.  I’m sure we’ve talked about them here.  I can’t recall if they had carbine back ends but I recall octagon barrels and the forearm had been replaced with a shorter forearm, so the open dovetail for the forearm tenon was visible ahead of the forearm cap.  I know Merz has sold a few of them.  

It appears Hollywood got one thing right – they knew people liked to see Winchesters.  I can’t recall seeing a Marlin in any of the old movies and TV shows.

Yesterday, I saw a few minutes of, “Wanted: Dead or Alive” – it never fails to amuse me to see him walk around with his cut down ’92 Winchester and a belt full of .45-70 cartridges.  It’s not surprising they never show him reloading the carbine!

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
May 22, 2022 - 1:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Perhaps, but why then in many scenes Boone’s Winchester does not have the barrel band (photo) nor does Stewart Whitman’s character who has an identical rifle also without the barrel band (photo)? Both appear to be factory correct, half-magazine ’73 Winchesters with cut down barrels. And both have scrap metal front sights attached to the barrel just like Paul Newman’s ’73 Winchester in Hombre (black and white photo), except that Newman’s originally had a full-length magazine tube which was shortened as evidenced by the channel for the magazine running the full length of the barrel (photo). These photos of the actual rifle show that the forend tip is welded to the barrel (photo) and the shortened magazine tube is welded to the forend tip (photo). This was believed to have been done because the wooden forend is badly cracked and the front portion was missing. Note the channel under the barrel for a full-length magazine tube.

Screen-Shot-2022-05-22-at-9.04.56-AM.jpgImage EnlargerRC-Rifle-2.jpegImage Enlarger129733383-2.jpgImage EnlargerIMG_0992.jpegImage EnlargerClose-Up-Left.jpgImage EnlargerClose-Up-Right-copy.jpgImage EnlargerSoldered-Tubular-Magazine-Closeup.jpgImage Enlarger

Also note that neither Boone’s or Whitman’s rifles have rear sights!

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
May 22, 2022 - 1:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

And the exposed dovetail where the forend tip tenon would have been (photo).

Exposed-Dovetail-Closeup-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 747
Member Since:
March 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
May 22, 2022 - 2:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

steve004 said

TR said

   It looks like Hollywood’s attempt to make a rifle look like a carbine. T/R

  

Hollywood did a lot of that.  I seem to recall many episodes of Bonanza where a few of the Cartwrights would use  a ’73 or ’92 with no forearm, in an apparent attempt to resemble a Henry rifle.  Also, there was that batch (a fairly large number) of ’92 Winchesters with MGM markings.  I’m sure we’ve talked about them here.  I can’t recall if they had carbine back ends but I recall octagon barrels and the forearm had been replaced with a shorter forearm, so the open dovetail for the forearm tenon was visible ahead of the forearm cap.  I know Merz has sold a few of them.  

It appears Hollywood got one thing right – they knew people liked to see Winchesters.  I can’t recall seeing a Marlin in any of the old movies and TV shows.

Yesterday, I saw a few minutes of, “Wanted: Dead or Alive” – it never fails to amuse me to see him walk around with his cut down ’92 Winchester and a belt full of .45-70 cartridges.  It’s not surprising they never show him reloading the carbine!

  

 I do seem to remember an episode of Have Gun Will Travel ,where Paladin appeared to use a Marlin rifle.Just forget what episode it was.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
May 22, 2022 - 2:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Thanks for the reply. It’s interesting to know that there are other Winchesters out there with exposed dovetails but I wonder why they would need to replace a standard forearm with a shorter one unless it was damaged like the Hombre Winchester. How were the shorter forends attached?

I will search the forum to see if I can find the discussion. I may even try to contact Merz for details. Thanks again.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
May 22, 2022 - 3:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Also in Rio Conchos are a bunch of obvious fake ’73 prop rifles. Not a barrel band where the forend tip should be.RC-Button-Mag.jpegImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3098
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3098
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
May 22, 2022 - 5:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Here’s the IMFDB data base for the movies and television shows that the M1873 Winchester appeared in.  It’s a fun long list to view:

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1873

 

Here’s the same thing of the Model 1892:

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1892

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1296
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
13
May 22, 2022 - 5:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

  I remember when Tom Selleck was buying 1876’s at Las Vegas for one of his movies. He was with George Madias, he told me they needed 4 guns, one was for close-ups, one to throw off the wagon, and I forgot what the others were for. The close-up gun was restored. I suppose if he bought them he kept them to sell later. At least he tried to keep them period correct.

 A Hollywood prop gun many times is cobbled up far beyond a Bubba job and is collectible only to a movie or a movie star, not as a stand alone Winchester. The old movies are full of one of a kind  modified Winchesters to throw someplace and when they land the prop company fixes them as cheap as possible. T/R

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 287
Member Since:
July 31, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
May 22, 2022 - 8:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

It’s typical for movie armorers to prepare several guns to be used by primary actors.  This is especially true if it’s a rifle that has a prime role.  I recall they had three Shiloh Sharps for Quigley Down Under.  One had a rejected barrel and was used as the gun that was tossed on the ground, horseback, etc.

I suspect that’s what might have happened for Rio Conchos.  Perhaps the armorers did the best they could to provide several similar looking (but not identical) guns.  One was made from a cut down rifle, the other was made from a carbine that had the the magazine cut as well.  Others may have been made up from wooden parts for still shots.  Anyone’s guess is as good as it gets now.

Petere Sherayko is a WACA member and he was an armorer to Tombstone.  Maybe he will jump on this thread.  

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 3098
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
May 22, 2022 - 9:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

I found one of the M92’s made up for MGM by Winchester in one of Merz’s old catalogs.  We think of prop rifles made up by armorers but apparently Winchester made up around 300 ’92 short rifle/SRC carbines for MGM. Most had 20 inch octagon barrels, full magazines and were equipped with either rifle stocks or carbine stocks.  Some had short rifle forearms and some had short trapper style carbine forearms.  Reportedly all had the dovetail on the underside of the barrel visible.  The one I’m looking at in Merz’s catalog has a sling ring, barrel band and carbine butt with 20 inch octagon barrel.  Merz states these were made for MGM by Winchester in the 1920’s.  It is very odd to see a factory made Winchester with a visible unfilled dovetail.  It would be interesting to know if MGM specifically wanted octagon barrels with barrel bands and sling rings – or – during this parts clean-up time period, did Winchester have a surplus of 20 inch octagon barrels and other parts that allowed them to cut MGM a favorable price on a large order?  

I have a vague memory of reading an article on these MGM 92’s.  Maybe in the WACA magazine?  I bet Michael would know.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
May 22, 2022 - 10:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

When you say the one you’re looking at in Merz’s catalog do you mean a printed copy of on their web site?

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1183
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
May 23, 2022 - 1:28 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

steve004 said
Most had 20 inch octagon barrels, full magazines and were equipped with either rifle stocks or carbine stocks.  Some had short rifle forearms and some had short trapper style carbine forearms.  Reportedly all had the dovetail on the underside of the barrel visible. 

I had one of those (Im guessing) almost 20 years ago.  It was an 1892 rifle in 32-20 with 20″ round barrel.  The forearm wood was shortened by 1 inch and the forend cap tenon recut.  Dont know that the barrel was cut or not, been too long ago.   You could see the old forend cap tenon between the mag tube and barrel.  The SN was 873383.  Bought it at a local gun show for $450.00 and it came with 5 boxes of Winchester ammo.  There were no markings or stamps added to the gun that I recall or have in my notes.  Wish I had some pics but unfortunately didnt take any.  I sold it a few months later.   

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
May 23, 2022 - 10:47 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Very interesting. Thanks for the reply!

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 27
Member Since:
March 4, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
June 16, 2022 - 1:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost
sp_ReportPost

Some have said they’ve seem rifles with shortened forends with the dovetail for the tip tenon exposed, with one saying that a new dovetail was made in the barrel to accommodate the shortened forend. But have any of you ever seen another Winchester like the Hombre Winchester where the shortenend forend was secured by welding it to the barrel?

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 628
Currently Online: TR
Guest(s) 75
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
1873man: 5178
clarence: 4310
TXGunNut: 3893
Chuck: 3509
steve004: 3098
twobit: 2843
Maverick: 2016
JWA: 1827
Big Larry: 1765
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 16
Topics: 10412
Posts: 89723

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1431
Members: 11501
Moderators: 3
Admins: 3
Navigation