Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Quite the M1886 coming up for auction
Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
March 3, 2018 - 3:11 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

http://www.amoskeagauction.com/117/48.php

Anyone see some flies that will help me no pine away for this one?  I sure like the caliber.

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
March 3, 2018 - 1:27 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

I’m wondering what others thoughts are regarding the two prominent features on this rifle: that are not noted in the factory ledger.  Specifically, the cheekpiece buttstock and the heavy barrel.  It seems I have seen several examples where rifles that have a multitude of special order features, do not have them all recorded in the ledger.  It also seems the space available in the ledgers was limited.  Was this a factor?  Did some rifles just have so many features to list and as space was short, they didn’t list them all?  Did the employee doing the records simply pick what he could fit in? All the information that described the stock dimensions took up plenty of space.  Surely that employee never dreamed of magnitude of the consequences of what he was doing, when over 100 years later, fussy and neurotic collectors would be agonizing over his pen strokes. 😉

How satisfied are others as to the heavy barrel and cheekpiece stock being original to the rifle at time of shipment? I suppose it is obvious the buttstock it correct given the special order drop and cast off.  So, the main remaining question for me is the heavy barrel.  Oops, and the “factory customized” buttplate where the heel has been, “softened”?

I do note there is no, “return and repair” notation in the Cody letter. 

What’s the level of appeal of this rifle to others? 

Avatar
Oldgrayguns
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 78
Member Since:
October 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
March 3, 2018 - 3:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Having never seen a cast winchester stock I can’t give an opinion.

But would like to hear from others if Winchester bent the tang like that.

I can’t figure out how you get the tight fit on a curved tang.

Would make putting a tang sight on it pretty interesting.

Again my comments should not be taken as saying yea or nay just try to learn somthing about an unusual special order.

Dominic

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4691
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
March 3, 2018 - 3:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Winchester did bend the tangs if they need a cast off and if a tang sight was put on by Winchester the sight would have a matching bend. As to the barrel I see its actually sticks up beyond the receiver which is rare, which makes me think the barrel is heavier than the standard extra heavy. When they put a barrel like that on they sometimes were not described as heavy or extra heavy in the ledger but they listed the guns weight.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
pdog72
Wyoming - Gods Country
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1285
Member Since:
January 26, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
March 3, 2018 - 4:00 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I would lean towards this rifle being correct through and through. The Ex. heavy barrel had to have the fore-end wood shaped just for it. The buttstock looks similar to the other examples that have surfaced on this forum. There has been an 1886, 1887, and 1892 with cast offs, if I recall. The butt plate could have been modified after it left the factory, but that doesn’t bother me at all. This is an outstanding, unique, one of a kind 1886 that should be more than appealing to any of us. I’m not too comfortable taking a second mortgage on the house to buy it though. Awesome rifle, for sure. 

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

Avatar
Eagle
NE OREGON
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 538
Member Since:
July 8, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
March 3, 2018 - 4:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I am always spooked with Winchesters that do not match the letters, especially one like this that has major changes/additions that are not mentioned. That being said, I wonder why the seller did not get a more current letter that could bring to light some of the extras? Just my take. Peter

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4691
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
March 3, 2018 - 4:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Peter,

A newer letter will not show any additional information unless it was missed the first time. What I would of like to seen is a copy of the ledger entry.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Eagle
NE OREGON
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 538
Member Since:
July 8, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
March 3, 2018 - 4:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Amen!

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
March 3, 2018 - 4:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Any opinions on my speculation that the very large number of special order features was a factor in why they weren’t all recorded (in that small space) of the ledger?  I especially agree and I would like to see the ledger entry on this one.  I too, am struck by the size of that barrel. 

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4691
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
March 3, 2018 - 6:56 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Steve,

I’ve seen all levels of guns that did not letter correctly and I don’t think its a space issue. . I’ve seen guns with 2 page letters and they somehow figured out where to write it all. The possibilities are a mistake by the person entering it in the ledger, missed by the person at Cody making out the letter, it was returned later and the barrel was changed or It was changed by a gun smith outside of the factory which I would say is a slim chance given the amount of work needed to be done. I wish they would have more and better pictures to see the barrel.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Bert H.
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12837
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
March 3, 2018 - 7:21 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Very interesting Model 1886 Rifle !! I believe that it is perfectly original, and that it is definitely a “one-of-a-kind” rifle. The consignor (seller) states that he examined the records at Cody, and that no mention of the Swiss cheek or extra heavy barrel is present in the records. Why that information was omitted is a question that cannot be answered, but it is my opinion that it was unintentionally omitted by the person who originally recorded it. If I had a spare $50K in my account, I would make a run at it.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Burt Humphrey
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 627
Member Since:
April 1, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
March 3, 2018 - 8:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I think “ledger space” may have sometimes been the issue when a particular feature is not listed but maybe the employee making the entry just did not note everything not knowing 100 plus years later guys like us would be looking at every detail. Here is an example on a 86 which I have (109591). Note there is not one spot in the ledger space where anything else could be written – the gun is absolutely correct but the ledger does not mention the shotgun butt even though other stock features are mentioned.

model1886.jpgImage Enlargerwinchesterledger.jpgImage Enlarger

1886letter.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

73del7.jpg

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
March 3, 2018 - 9:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 I have a 86 in 45-90 that letters “32” octagon extra heavy barrel, weight 15 lbs.” It’s barrel corners stick above the receiver and are beveled just like a big barrel Sharps. That’s not common but I have seen other guns like that. What is uncommon is an extra heavy not mentioned on the letter. The Cody records are shipping room records, you would think they would notice the weight.   If I was buying I would look closely at barrel markings and how the fore arm cap was machined. The die that marked that barrel should have marked a lot of other barrels during that time period. A 10X magnifier answers those kind of questions. T/R     

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
March 3, 2018 - 9:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 The original owner of this 86 owned a company in Chicopee Falls, Mass. and sold his company to the owner of Stevens Arms also of Chicopee Falls in 1900. It’s possible he had Stevens work on his gun in town. It’s also possible that he ordered a barrel from Winchester and Stevens or someone who worked at Stevens did the work. A lot of gun talent in Chicopee Falls in those days. This guy did not live in Left Field Arkansas. Neat gun, I like it but no letter no big money! T/R

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
March 4, 2018 - 12:13 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 Who blued the receiver, it was shipped cased. Maybe Winchester? I have a Browning by Stevens shot gun made in the 30’s with the same color blue. No letter no big money. T/R

Avatar
Eagle
NE OREGON
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 538
Member Since:
July 8, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
March 4, 2018 - 12:52 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

T/R…only because I am unaware, why do you say it was shipped cased? Peter

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
March 4, 2018 - 1:40 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 Eagle,     All 86’s were standard case colored until about 122,000 S/N, then blue. The letters do not mention finish unless non standard. I personally have owned many 86’s in the 100,000 to 119,000 S/N range, all did not mention finish and all were cased. From the pictures I see dull gray blue giving way to case under the blue. This was a Stevens style finish. Just a guess. Blue finish not mentioned in the letter. It could have been returned to Winchester and refinished but it’s not in the ledger, so maybe the late 20’s, but the colors wrong, maybe it’s just a poor picture. T/R 

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
March 4, 2018 - 2:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 I stand corrected, in the Pirkle book page 29 he says case is standard below 122,000 s/n for standard frame and 90,000 for takedown frames. I have not owned any take downs in that serial range. Madis says 122,000 with the exception of takedown feature 80,000. With that said, not listing it on the letter means blue. T/R

Avatar
win4575
Montana
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 698
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
19
March 4, 2018 - 4:23 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Imho, this rifle is 100% Winchester as shipped.  I have over a hundred factory letters on various rifles and carbines that I’ve owned in the past 50 years.   Many going back to the mid 1960’s, when Tom Hall was doing the research in New Haven.  As collectors, we all want our guns to “letter” all the way.  Truth is, that is wishfull thinking and in some cases, we’re just forced to face reality and realize that not everything was recorded.  The recorders were for the most part younger women, who never considered that the info they were recording would have any importance 10 years after the fact, let alone 100 years later.  Again, the recordings are not always complete.  Some collectors literally live and breathe the guns they collect.  I did this by studying closely, every item I’ve ever collected.  If you look at, touch and even shoot enough of these guns, you’ll probably know if they’re real or not.  At some point, you just have to trust your gut.  If you question everything, you won’t be a collector of anything.

Avatar
Vince
SO. Oregon
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 687
Member Since:
June 5, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
20
March 4, 2018 - 5:33 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

Burt Humphrey said

model1886.jpgImage Enlarger

I’ve got to ask about that rear sight! Just how is it used? I’ve never seen a square sight.

Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles

 “There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”

Teddy Roosevelt 

4029-1.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online: 426crown, Tony. R
Guest(s) 115
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 6395
Chuck: 5797
steve004: 5155
1873man: 4691
deerhunter: 2692
Big Larry: 2546
twobit: 2491
mrcvs: 2189
Maverick: 2023
Newest Members:
Bkmkok
Leonardb
Skysquatch82
cdavis5705
jj95
DWill01
Joe Bang
pew pew
Longrangesniper
Tf44
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14687
Posts: 131391

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 2057
Members: 9966
Moderators: 3
Admins: 4
Administrators: Mike Hager, Bert H., JWA, SethJ
Moderators: Rob Kassab, Brad Dunbar, Heather
Navigation