Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Quick Help: Win 1873 look original ?
Avatar
Blueliner
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 494
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21
November 21, 2017 - 9:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Follow up with Cody shows no records, no dates, no data. Friend said they showed him Pauline’s letter, so either it was fake or she commented on the engraving only.

 I sent an email to her to confirm.

Buyer put deposit down, but is in 3 day period, so he will request return.

I notice the GI description is very carefully written.

Bill

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
November 21, 2017 - 10:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 Does the grain of the wood look European? T/R

Avatar
Blueliner
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 494
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
November 22, 2017 - 1:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

T/R

I only have the GI pictures to go by, so I can’t help on that one.

Bill

Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 356
Member Since:
April 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
November 22, 2017 - 4:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

How odd is it that Cody does not have info on this 1873 serial number?

Walter

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4692
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
November 22, 2017 - 4:19 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Blueliner said
Follow up with Cody shows no records, no dates, no data. Friend said they showed him Pauline’s letter, so either it was fake or she commented on the engraving only.

 I sent an email to her to confirm.

Buyer put deposit down, but is in 3 day period, so he will request return.

I notice the GI description is very carefully written.

Bill  

Bill,

So Cody says this serial number is a blank Line?

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
November 22, 2017 - 4:45 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

wallyb said
How odd is it that Cody does not have info on this 1873 serial number?

Walter  

Good point.  After seeing the posts regarding the missing record for this serial number, I’ve looked very closely at the numbers on the lower tang and compared them to genuine Model 1873’s of the same period and have come to the conclusion that this serial number is a fake.  It one looks closely one can see that the numbers are engraved, not stamped.  Besides that, specific problems are:  The B is missing the serifs at top and bottom.  On the 5 the tail should in in a little dot but doesn’t.  The 9, like the 5, should have the tail ending in a little dot but, again,  doesn’t.  The top of the 7 should have little serifs at both ends but they are missing.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
November 22, 2017 - 11:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Not that I don’t have serious doubts about this rifle – I do.  But, is it possible that given a plan to produce a very elaborately engraved rifle, they pulled a receiver from the line before it was serialized – with the plan to engrave the serial number rather than stamp it?  Might this also explain why it doesn’t appear in the standard ledger?  I could see a seller asserting this explanation – whether they knew it to be true or not. However, I suppose for some unique rifles selected to receive very special treatment, deviations in some of the standard production methods occurred.

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
November 22, 2017 - 2:05 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

steve004 said
Not that I don’t have serious doubts about this rifle – I do.  But, is it possible that given a plan to produce a very elaborately engraved rifle, they pulled a receiver from the line before it was serialized – with the plan to engrave the serial number rather than stamp it?  Might this also explain why it doesn’t appear in the standard ledger?  I could see a seller asserting this explanation – whether they knew it to be true or not. However, I suppose for some unique rifles selected to receive very special treatment, deviations in some of the standard production methods occurred.  

All the more reason for Winchester to have recorded this serial number.  Doesn’t make sense for them to make an elaborate, presentation type rifle and not even record that serial number.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4692
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
November 22, 2017 - 3:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

The serial number is correct and was stamped. The B is  correct for that serial number. 

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Blueliner
California
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 494
Member Since:
July 19, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
November 22, 2017 - 3:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

1873man said

Bill,

So Cody says this serial number is a blank Line?

Bob  

1873man said

Bill,

So Cody says this serial number is a blank Line?

Bob  

That’s correct Bob

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
November 22, 2017 - 3:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 Comparing the serial number to “191485B” in Jim Gordan’s book 1 on page 175, the 1 9 5 and the B look right when you consider the fact the lower tang is refinished. When refinishing they remove metal and the stamp gets shallower and the serif’s disappear. T/R

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
November 22, 2017 - 4:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

1873man said
The serial number is correct and was stamped. The B is  correct for that serial number. 

Bob  

Here are serial numbers in the same range, all with B’s that have serifs.

1873.jpgImage Enlarger1873-2.jpgImage Enlarger1873-3.jpgImage Enlarger1873-8.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
1873man
Wisconsin
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4692
Member Since:
May 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
November 22, 2017 - 11:46 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Here is one without the serifs. Its a nickel heavy barrel 22

Bob

 

IMG_20171122_173030778.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

Avatar
Kevin Jones
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 482
Member Since:
March 21, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
November 23, 2017 - 2:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

After seeing the reconfigured buttplate/stock I wouldn’t consider it any further. 

No telling what else has been altered. 

IMG_0805-Copy-Copy-Copy.JPG

Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
November 23, 2017 - 2:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

I suspect many aspects of this rifle have been altered.  However, I would very much enjoy having a discussion with Pauline about the engraving.

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36
November 23, 2017 - 2:47 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory

1873man said
Here is one without the serifs. Its a nickel heavy barrel 22

Bob
   

So, I’m guessing that the presence of serifs, or lack of them, on the “B” is irrelevant because Winchester maintained no patterns here.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
November 23, 2017 - 2:51 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Another possibility (probability) for the engraved serial number on the tang could very well be that the original tang was replaced along the way.  This could have been done by a gunsmith or, more likely, by Winchester themselves on an R & R.  Many of the 1873’s with set triggers developed problems and were returned for changing the set trigger to a standard trigger.  When this was done, a blank lower tang was installed in place of the original one.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
steve004
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5155
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
38
November 23, 2017 - 3:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

Wincacher said
Another possibility (probability) for the engraved serial number on the tang could very well be that the original tang was replaced along the way.  This could have been done by a gunsmith or, more likely, by Winchester themselves on an R & R.  Many of the 1873’s with set triggers developed problems and were returned for changing the set trigger to a standard trigger.  When this was done, a blank lower tang was installed in place of the original one.  

If that is true, it would be darn interesting to know the original serial number of the rifle.  Also, if they replaced the lower tang with a blank one, why does it have a serial number?

Avatar
Wincacher
New Mexico
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 1167
Member Since:
December 1, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39
November 23, 2017 - 3:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

steve004 said

  Also, if they replaced the lower tang with a blank one, why does it have a serial number?  

Someone may very well have wanted to re-mark the original serial number.  Or they simply didn’t want to have a rifle without a serial number.

1876-4-1.jpg

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." 

Avatar
TR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1880
Member Since:
June 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
40
November 23, 2017 - 5:34 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print

 Or perhaps someone had a plain gun that lettered a blank line and decided to build a fantasy gun. T/R 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online: wally, deerhunter, rogertherelic, Anthony, 450 Fuller, [email protected], Nevada Paul, Lead Snowstorm, Chris Sterling, Texasaggie19
Guest(s) 88
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 6400
Chuck: 5799
steve004: 5155
1873man: 4692
deerhunter: 2692
Big Larry: 2546
twobit: 2491
mrcvs: 2189
Maverick: 2023
Newest Members:
Deaf Smith
niubi
Texasaggie19
Diego
Bkmkok
Leonardb
Skysquatch82
cdavis5705
jj95
DWill01
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14692
Posts: 131448

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 2057
Members: 9970
Moderators: 3
Admins: 4
Administrators: Mike Hager, Bert H., JWA, SethJ
Moderators: Rob Kassab, Brad Dunbar, Heather
Navigation