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April 26, 2015
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A short while back there was a thread or comment about the subject of Winchester using a clear lacquer (?) finish on color case hardened (CCH) parts. Attached is a photo of the forearm end cap of a CCH Model 1886. Is the yellow-brown scum the remnant of this coating? The receiver shows no sign of any coating or it’s there and completely intact and not yellowed…OR more likely, I just don’t know what I’m talking about!
BK
More than likely, it is old dried gun oil.
In regards to this topic, I have seen and handled at least a few thousand Model 1885 rifles during the past 40-years, some of them in superb original condition. To this date, not a single one of them has had any trace of a clear coat or lacquer on the case color finished receiver frame. Additionally, after many many years of intense research, I have not ever found any evidence that Winchester ever put a clear coat on a case color finished receiver… models 1873, 1876, 1885, 1886, 1887, or 1890. In all of the documentation and records that I have researched, no mention of it anywhere. Conclusion… any clear coat finish found today was applied in much more recent times, and /or it is either old dried oil, or possible protect wax that has yellowed on the few guns out there that appear to have been clear coated.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have been going to large national gun shows for 30yrs, I have bought and looked at expensive Winchester 73s, 76s, and 86s. Other collectors have showed me guns and asked for my opinion, when I see proud wood, cased screws with chatter marks, original wood finish, and areas of bright case colors in the protected areas with a coating of “something” on it, I smile. T/R
Bruce,
I pointed some spots on the side of the receiver which are the coatings we were talking about in the 86 thread (case-hardening-86)
I have seen forearm caps like that many of time and it is a coating but its not dried oil. When I get home this weekend I will see if I have some like that and take photos.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
April 26, 2015
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https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/case-hardening-86/
Yes, I thought I saw the topic here. It’s now on p. 2. Thanks Bob!
November 7, 2015
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It seems this topic has been around for a long time, I suspect it’s responsible for the warnings we hear from time to time about using harsh solvents on rifles with CCH finishes.
The warning about cleaning case colored guns was about reducing or removing the color from case. Placing the gun in direct sunlight or certain cleaners especially if its acidic can dull the colors. One I have always heard of is guys that used Lemon Pledge to dust off their guns can be bad.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bert H. said
More than likely, it is old dried gun oil.In regards to this topic, I have seen and handled at least a few thousand Model 1885 rifles during the past 40-years, some of them in superb original condition. To this date, not a single one of them has had any trace of a clear coat or lacquer on the case color finished receiver frame. Additionally, after many many years of intense research, I have not ever found any evidence that Winchester ever put a clear coat on a case color finished receiver… models 1873, 1876, 1885, 1886, 1887, or 1890. In all of the documentation and records that I have researched, no mention of it anywhere. Conclusion… any clear coat finish found today was applied in much more recent times, and /or it is either old dried oil, or possible protect wax that has yellowed on the few guns out there that appear to have been clear coated.
Bert
Hi Bert,
If you look at the attached 1886’s that Russ Day and Leroy Merz has for sale, it looks like there are remnants of some kind of protective coating. Do you think this was applied by Winchester or by an owner after the fact? I’ve seen a few 1886’s with this similar type of coating.
http://www.dayswinchesters.com/1886457039xxx.htm
http://merzantiques.com/item/winchester-model-1886-rifle-in-.40-651
Thanks,
Don
This is why it is necessary to find historical evidence to know for sure. We have two highly respected and expert connoisseur members here on this forum. Bert H asserts that Winchester never used a protective coating over case hardened receivers and 1873man asserts that he has seen many. The only thing that comes to mind as a way to reconcile these two diverging views is that there was an approved “after market” option, possibly applied by authorized Winchester dealers. Something similar to the many after market dealer installed options available today on automobiles.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
deerhunter said
Hi Bert,
If you look at the attached 1886’s that Russ Day and Leroy Merz has for sale, it looks like there are remnants of some kind of protective coating. Do you think this was applied by Winchester or by an owner after the fact? I’ve seen a few 1886’s with this similar type of coating.
http://www.dayswinchesters.com/1886457039xxx.htm
http://merzantiques.com/item/winchester-model-1886-rifle-in-.40-651
Thanks,
Don
I do not believe that “Winchester” applied the protective coating. I do believe that collectors in the past have used different products to protect and enhance the case color finish. Until someone finds irrefutable evidence (documentation) that Winchester applied a clear coat to the case color finished models, I will remain unconvinced of that line of thought. As you know, I have spent vast amounts of time and effort looking through every scrap of information that I have found in my research. I have looked at hundreds of drawings & blueprints, and found nothing to support the theory of clear coating.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wincacher said
This is why it is necessary to find historical evidence to know for sure. We have two highly respected and expert connoisseur members here on this forum. Bert H asserts that Winchester never used a protective coating over case hardened receivers and 1873man asserts that he has seen many. The only thing that comes to mind as a way to reconcile this two diverging view is that there was an approved “after market” option, possibly applied a approved Winchester dealers. Something similar to the many after market options available today on automobiles.
I do agree with you on that. I can’t say with 100% certainty that it was done at the factory just like Bert can’t be 100% certain that Winchester didn’t do it until you find written proof. I’m basing my assumption on that I have seen many of cased guns with this same process done to them and they all looked about the same. If this process was done by different individuals I think you would see a wide range of workmanship. I’m 100% certain its not dried oil since its has a smooth shine to it and you can see through it and its always on high condition guns where the they were taken care of and you don’t see it on the blue parts. Dried oil is always in the protected corners were the rag can’t wipe the excess oil away. That is a topic for another discussion why people feel the need to remove the seal of originality (dried oil in the corners) from the gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
What ever is on these old guns is the same coating and preserves the old bright case colors under it. The coating comes of easily with lacquer thinner.T/R
TR said
What ever is on these old guns is the same coating and preserves the old bright case colors under it. The coating comes of easily with lacquer thinner.T/R
Or with any ordinary gun cleaning solvent, which is another reason that I am of the opinion that Winchester did not apply it. Why would Winchester waste the time, effort, and cost to put a clear coat finish on a rifle that could or would be decimated the first time solvent touched it? It simply makes no sense.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Or with any ordinary gun cleaning solvent, which is another reason that I am of the opinion that Winchester did not apply it. Why would Winchester waste the time, effort, and cost to put a clear coat finish on a rifle that could or would be decimated the first time solvent touched it? It simply makes no sense.
Bert
That could be the reason you don’t see it on every CCH gun but I don’t know too many gun owners that would use a harsh solvent on their gun unless they are targeting something that can’t get off with anything else like they got paint on the gun. If the “gun cleaning solvent” would remove the coating over the case it would remove the wood finish as well. I know the coatings that remain on my guns have lasted a long time and I don’t see any degradation from the years of wiping them down.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Regarding the link to the Merz gun, the cartridge stamping look incredibly light to me? I’m saying too light for my taste. Plus, the barrel is bright blue and the magazine is brown?
On the original subject, I just don’t know. It is a very interesting topic. I have seen what is shown on Russell Day’s and Merz’s rifles on many rifles over the years. And, it usually looks about the same – as was stated in an earlier post – there doesn’t seem to be much variability. I can’t recall if I have seen this coating on an 1885, but my interest area has always been lever rifles over single-shots. It’s interesting that Bert reports he has never seen a coating on a single-shot, particularly given the volume he has examined. I find this most perplexing of all. If Winchester did apply the coating, why would they do it on the lever actions but not the single-shots? And even more intriguing, if collectors applied this coating themselves, why did they apply it only to lever actions and not their case colored single-shots? 
Here are a few more pictures from the same gun. The interesting one is the lever, it has a run of the coating on it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob,
That “run” in the clear coat is just another clue to me that it was not Winchester that applied it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I think this will be one of those items that we can’t prove one way or another but one thing it proves that its not dried oil.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I think this will be one of those items that we can’t prove one way or another but one thing it proves that its not dried oil.Bob
In this case I agree. However, there are times when dried out “yellow” looking stuff is old oil.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
A very thin coat of raw (not boiled) linseed oil will dry hard and clear like lacquer. It used to be widely used on tools and guns, both wood and metal. Couldn’t someone have this stuff tested by a lab to see what it is? I’m sure some could be found that wouldn’t hurt anything. Wouldn’t prove who did it it, but it would be a good start to know what material it is.
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