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steve004 said
And we have catalog illustrations of slings attached to the ring? My memory is Winchester slings were attached to, “screw eyes.” Seems to me, the Winchester attachments were designed to fit the eyelets, not the ring.
Steve, After all this palaver, isn’t it clear that the kind of sling ALWAYS used on cavalry carbines for 300 yrs was a wide leather band worn over the rider’s shoulder which ended in a very large snap-swivel? I mentioned that I had one once, & some of the other cavalry gear that was still being sold cheap 50 yrs ago. JB posted a photo of one above & you can find many others on line. No resemblance or relation to an infantryman’s or hunter’s sling, except for being made of leather.
carbine-sling.jpg (42 KB)
clarence said
steve004 said
And we have catalog illustrations of slings attached to the ring? My memory is Winchester slings were attached to, “screw eyes.” Seems to me, the Winchester attachments were designed to fit the eyelets, not the ring.
Steve, After all this palaver, isn’t it clear that the kind of sling ALWAYS used on cavalry carbines for 300 yrs was a wide leather band worn over the rider’s shoulder which ended in a very large snap-swivel? I mentioned that I had one once, & some of the other cavalry gear that was still being sold cheap 50 yrs ago. JB posted a photo of one above & you can find many others on line. No resemblance or relation to an infantryman’s or hunter’s sling, except for being made of leather.
Calvary style carbines are not my genre at all. I’ve paid almost no attention to them throughout my life. Aside from that, I’ve yet to see a vintage photo of any Winchester, Marlin or Savage sling ring carbine outfitted with such a sling or slung over the owner’s shoulder with a sling that attached to the ring. Maybe it is just a nostalgic holdover and it remained because it looked cool. I think most would agree with me that Winchester management had discussions on the topic but none of us know just what was said.
steve004 said
Maybe it is just a nostalgic holdover and it remained because it looked cool.
You hit the nail on the head! For hundreds of yrs, most of the short-barreled guns called “carbines” were carried by cavalry troopers on cavalry slings. A carbine was “expected” to have a ring attached to it–even when it wasn’t going to be carried in the traditional way. Why do men’s suits usually have a row or 4 or 5 buttons sewn to the cuffs? What is their function? None today, but in the past men’s coat cuffs actually buttoned up. Carbine rings on civilian guns are the same kind of non-functional carryover from a past, but no longer relevant, tradition.
1873man said
A young collector is more apt to adopt the new term Sling ring rather than a old time collector who’s memory is use to calling it saddle ring. I will probably still call it a saddle ring cause that is what I’ve always called it. Its just like a old timer going from a flip phone to a smart phone. Change is harder the older you are.Bob
Bob,
I find it funny your statement to adopt the new term Sling Ring, rather than calling it Saddle Ring. As a Saddle Ring is truly a “Collector” term and must fall back on my previous statement.
My copy of the 1878 catalog on page 32 under Nomenclature and Price List of Component Parts, uses the words “Sling Ring and Staple for Carbine” and the price for a Sling Ring & Staple for the Model 1866, Model 1873 & Model 1876 were all each .52 cents. It is also interesting to me to note on the previous page 31 there is no such tern as a Firing Pin. The catalog uses the terms “Breech Pin” and “Piston” for the firing pin.
So I imagine with a lot of other terms we use today they are merely “Collectors Terms” and were not always used by the factory as such.
But whole heartedly agree that changing to the original factory terms would be a major up hill battle. I’ve called them Saddle Ring Carbines all my life, and most wouldn’t know what a Sling Ring is. If I asked a dealer if they have a replacement Piston for my model 73, they will assuredly look at me like I was nuts!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
clarence said
Chuck said
I don’t disagree but I bet the ring was used by someone to tie the gun to them, horse, scabbard, wagon or saddle at some time or another.Rarely, is what I think. Otherwise, there’d be photos, written records, or other evidence, of such use. And even movies, because when the first films were made in the early 1900s, many of them Westerns, real cowboys were still riding the range. What do early Westerns, like The Great Train Robbery of 1903 show? Long guns carried in saddle scabbards of some kind.
And what about all those who carried rifles on horseback rather than carbines? If having the ring provided any important advantage, wouldn’t most riders have carried carbines instead?
See the picture on Post #4 of this topic.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/origin-of-the-term-saddle-ring/
Chuck said
See the picture on Post #4 of this topic.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/origin-of-the-term-saddle-ring/
That photo is faked or otherwise misleading, such as having the gun hung there just to make the photo, like all the faked cowboy photos showing multiple revolvers & daggers stuck in their belts. Chuck–are you a horseman? I grew up riding, & having any heavy object slapping against the horse’s flanks would drive the horse crazy.
Clarence
I don’t think that photo was faked per say, but do agree there were other methods used for carrying on horseback.
See this older forum post where we further discussed Saddle Shoes, Scabbards, Carbine Boots and Slings.
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/how-were-they-carried/
Always more than one way to skin a Cat!
Another item semi frequently discussed and examples shown in the Gordon Book are guns with saddle wear on the forearm.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
Another item semi frequently discussed and examples shown in the Gordon Book are guns with saddle wear on the forearm.
I’ve got one of them–the pattern of wear is unmistakable. Thanks for posting that link–might have prevented a lot of wasted chatter. I don’t have the Gordon book but I’ve seen the originals of several of those paintings by Charley Russell, Frederic Remington, & other Western artists in both the Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa & the Amon Carter Museum in Ft. Worth, where I used to live. What do they not show? A SRC dangling freely from the saddle horn or other part of the saddle. I think those who theorize about carrying a SRC that way would change their minds quickly if they tried it out at a trot or canter over rough ground.
I don’t know about the cowboys but the Canadian North West Mounted Police knew how to , “saddle carry” a carbine . Have a look at the article in the spring 2015 Collector, “Winchester Arms in Canadian service”. Now I gotta wonder what them fellas called them rattlin’ little rings on Their guns. My fatherinlaw, long deceased, trapped fur in the winter to supplement his farm income back in the 30-40’s , He carried a .38 Hopkin and Allen in His Pocket.He had a friend name of Elmer Trick who trapped all his life and run a fish out trout farm. I remember Elmer when he was well in His 80’s back in the late 60’s, and still trapping and could out run most 30 year olds. Any way Elmer used to carry a .32 cal , mod ’92 short carbine, I don’t remember if it was a trapper or just cut, but it was short and had a short stock. It hung on His belt by the “ring’ attached to a hook or a snap. So I was just wonderin’ would that be a “belt ring” carbine, cause it never seen a saddle.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry Mero said
I don’t know about the cowboys but the Canadian North West Mounted Police knew how to , “saddle carry” a carbine . Have a look at the article in the spring 2015 Collector, “Winchester Arms in Canadian service”. Now I gotta wonder what them fellas called them rattlin’ little rings on Their guns. My fatherinlaw, long deceased, trapped fur in the winter to supplement his farm income back in the 30-40’s , He carried a .38 Hopkin and Allen in His Pocket.He had a friend name of Elmer Trick who trapped all his life and run a fish out trout farm. I remember Elmer when he was well in His 80’s back in the late 60’s, and still trapping and could out run most 30 year olds. Any way Elmer used to carry a .32 cal , mod ’92 short carbine, I don’t remember if it was a trapper or just cut, but it was short and had a short stock. It hung on His belt by the “ring’ attached to a hook or a snap. So I was just wonderin’ would that be a “belt ring” carbine, cause it never seen a saddle.
I’ll readily confess my lack of experience. I’ve rarely ridden a horse and when I did I had no gear with me. I’ve also never been a trapper. I have however been a hunter and have experience carrying gear attached to me (e.g. holster, knife, cartridge belt, canteen, etc.). What I can’t imagine being satisfactory to me at all is having anything dangle from a belt. I need everything fairly tight vs. flopping around. I agree with the comments about the advisability of having a carbine bang against the side of a horse.
clarence said
Maverick said
Another item semi frequently discussed and examples shown in the Gordon Book are guns with saddle wear on the forearm.I’ve got one of them–the pattern of wear is unmistakable. Thanks for posting that link–might have prevented a lot of wasted chatter. I don’t have the Gordon book but I’ve seen the originals of several of those paintings by Charley Russell, Frederic Remington, & other Western artists in both the Gilcrease Museum in Tulsa & the Amon Carter Museum in Ft. Worth, where I used to live. What do they not show? A SRC dangling freely from the saddle horn or other part of the saddle. I think those who theorize about carrying a SRC that way would change their minds quickly if they tried it out at a trot or canter over rough ground.
I have seen Winchesters forearms worn down to the magazine tube, ostensibly from saddle wear. I found it believable and can’t think of a good alternate explanation for how the piece received that wear.
steve004 said
I have seen Winchesters forearms worn down to the magazine tube, ostensibly from saddle wear. I found it believable and can’t think of a good alternate explanation for how the piece received that wear.
Maybe sling wear? T/R
TR said
Maybe sling wear? T/R
Aside from the fact that few lever guns were ever equipped with slings, why even speculate about other explanations, when there are many paintings & photos that leave no doubt that crosswise on the pommel was a popular method of carry?
Sorry Clarence, Just dry humor. I’ve just got that word, (sling) in my head. I Envision a sling ring carbine in the gun rack in the back window of a Dodge truck. After about 300,000 miles with the windows open, the air causing the sling to flutter on the forearm causing sling wear. T/R
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