cj57 said
As to the gun in topic, it’s obvious the barrel on gun is reworked, it’s been reblued and the front sight base has silver solder showing and cal. stamps are wrong. I think it might have been a 33 that was cut to 22″ and a lower base soldered on after reboring to make a rare gun or just easy to make ammo. You can see the polishing around the new cal stamp. The extra barrel appears to have been reblued also, the roll stamp seems light and dragged a little. Unless it’s on the low price range, I think I’d pass. To many what ifs, the stock and frame look good, with honest wear, the front, the takedown lug looks polished along with the barrels. I think I saw a 45-90ELB on Ebay a while back, that was refinished.
Good Luck
This is the point of this ,except the barrel currently on the gun is in fact an after market barrel, nothing hidden there. My problem is if the gun and the current ” spare/original” barrel are legit. Not sure about the ebay thing as I thought you couldn’t sell firearms there, but yes it has been on gunbroker and never met the reserve. Now the supposed original barrel has a 45-90 stamp on the bottom along with ns and a sidewards T and a 5 digit number. BUT it is missing the period after the A in USA stamp.
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
CJ – I certainly agree with you about the caliber markings (on what I believe to be the purported original barrel. The number in .45-90 are not only off, but the WCF lettering is off – as well as the period next to the WCF lettering.
Tom – I don’t think this is the rifle for you. It might be a fine and desirable shooter but I really dislike buying a modified shooter rifle as a collector price.
steve004 said
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
CJ – I certainly agree with you about the caliber markings (on what I believe to be the purported original barrel. The number in .45-90 are not only off, but the WCF lettering is off – as well as the period next to the WCF lettering.
Tom – I don’t think this is the rifle for you. It might be a fine and desirable shooter but I really dislike buying a modified shooter rifle as a collector price.
Steve I have no reason to doubt you on this one. I’m starting walk away. There is alot going for this gun but the negatives are starting to pile up. My biggest question is why the new barrel. I don’t get that. If i was a CAS and wanted a big bore lever gun for competition why would I buy an obviously desirable collectable 86 …… And then buy a new after market barrel for it? Going with Burt humphry’s and others too, if your guts turning it probably ain’t right. besides that the price tag is pretty rich. And your correct it has been out on GB and never met reserve.
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
cj57 said
Henry Mero said
Just curious, why would You consider this gun a rarity
The ELW was only offered in 45-70 in catalogs, so they are scares in any other caliber. I have seen them in 45-90, 40-82, 40-65, and I have one in 38-56
Henry. To follow on to CJ, ELW have 22″ barrels, and I believe the butt stock also had a larger hole to remove more wood. The rarity of it, and use that term loosely, is in fact the caliber. Although I have actually seen more 45-90ELW than the others. Plus being with checkered pistol grip is even less common. Of course my holy grail would be an ELW in .33!
You mean like this one…
Yes Bert, that is my holy grail. Pure ecstasy in that one. And to answer Steves forthcoming question, DAMN RIGHT I would hunt with it! Just not on rainy days.
oldcrankyyankee said
steve004 said
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
cj57 said
Steve, to many questions on this one!!! If I remember, this seller has had questionable guns before
CJ – I certainly agree with you about the caliber markings (on what I believe to be the purported original barrel. The number in .45-90 are not only off, but the WCF lettering is off – as well as the period next to the WCF lettering.
Tom – I don’t think this is the rifle for you. It might be a fine and desirable shooter but I really dislike buying a modified shooter rifle as a collector price.
Steve I have no reason to doubt you on this one. I’m starting walk away. There is alot going for this gun but the negatives are starting to pile up. My biggest question is why the new barrel. I don’t get that. If i was a CAS and wanted a big bore lever gun for competition why would I buy an obviously desirable collectable 86 …… And then buy a new after market barrel for it? Going with Burt humphry’s and others too, if your guts turning it probably ain’t right. besides that the price tag is pretty rich. And your correct it has been out on GB and never met reserve.
Well, from his description, he had the extra barrel made up with a faster twist so he could stabilize heavier bullets. The .45-90 was not designed to shoot 400 grain bullets. I suppose this is logical. I’ll have to add I’m a bit undecided about the .45-90 caliber markings and the WCF numbers. I was looking at the .45-90 Burt posted (with clear caliber markings) (in the M53 thread) and I just pulled a .45-90 out of the safe. I had stated I thought they were clearly off – I’m just not as positive. Still, I think you are on the right path to steer clear of the rifle.
steve004 said
On the topic of M86 ELW’s, I seem to recall one that was originally chambered in .50 Express.
There are none documented in .50 caliber. Winchester specifically mentioned that none would be made in the caliber. If you consider the contour and taper of the 22-inch ELW barrels, it is evident that the bore diameter of the 50 Express is too large to be accommodated.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
This is the pic of barrel on the gun, blow it up and you can see it’s a Winchester barrel, I beleave it was a 33 rebored and cut down. If you look at front sight base, it is not the correct height for either the 33 or 45, the 33 is around 3/8″ and 45 around 1/8″. The supposedly original barrel has correct base for 45, but shows evidence of refinish, doesn’t match frame.
cj57 said
This is the pic of barrel on the gun, blow it up and you can see it’s a Winchester barrel, I beleave it was a 33 rebored and cut down. If you look at front sight base, it is not the correct height for either the 33 or 45, the 33 is around 3/8″ and 45 around 1/8″. The supposedly original barrel has correct base for 45, but shows evidence of refinish, doesn’t match frame.
This is the photo of the barrel that is mounted on the rifle. Clearly, that barrel has been made up or doctored up. The caliber markings are off. The owner said he had that barrel made up with a faster twist. I had interpreted that to mean that he had a new barrel made up. On the other hand, perhaps he took a .33 barrel and in the process of having it rebored, he selected a faster twist.
What are your thoughts on the supposed original barrel? Particularly the caliber markings on that barrel?
Bert H. said
steve004 said
On the topic of M86 ELW’s, I seem to recall one that was originally chambered in .50 Express.
There are none documented in .50 caliber. Winchester specifically mentioned that none would be made in the caliber. If you consider the contour and taper of the 22-inch ELW barrels, it is evident that the bore diameter of the 50 Express is too large to be accommodated.
Bert
If we consider the .50 Express to designate .50-110, then I was perhaps mistaken. It is the .50-100-450, of which one was made as a, “light weight” and two were made as “extra lightweights” (these two were consecutive numbered). These rifles were ordered this way. That is, if we want to believe the WACA article on the subject by Jim Paul and Tom Adams (Summer, 2012). This is however, not the origin of my belief that an ’86 in .50 Express ELW existed. I know one was offered for sale many decades ago but I don’t think I every had much as far as the particulars.
Steve,
That barrel looks correct and stamps, but the pics are dark and blow up, there’s evidence of refinish, (polishing), but frame and stock are untouched. Look at all pics, the barrel on gun has roll stamp, it’s not a after market barrel. Look at front base, you cash see silver solder coming out. They did a poor job of converting it to 45-90, so he bought the supposed original later! I’m sorry but the story about rifling twist isn’t worth 6K. I think they had a nice deluxe 33 and tried to make a rare 45-90
cj57 said
Steve,That barrel looks correct and stamps, but the pics are dark and blow up, there’s evidence of refinish, (polishing), but frame and stock are untouched. Look at all pics, the barrel on gun has roll stamp, it’s not a after market barrel. Look at front base, you cash see silver solder coming out. They did a poor job of converting it to 45-90, so he bought the supposed original later! I’m sorry but the story about rifling twist isn’t worth 6K. I think they had a nice deluxe 33 and tried to make a rare 45-90
So one of the barrels is an original correct .45-90 barrel (with the exception of refinishing)?
cj57 said
I believe the extra barrel is a real 45-90ELB, but was never on that gun.
I spoke with the owner of the subject rifle, and the extra barrel was the original barrel on that ELW rifle. The barrel on it now was manufactured after the fact (with a much faster twist rate).
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
cj57 said
I believe the extra barrel is a real 45-90ELB, but was never on that gun.
I spoke with the owner of the subject rifle, and the extra barrel was the original barrel on that ELW rifle. The barrel on it now was manufactured after the fact (with a much faster twist rate).
Ok Now that is settled, thank you Bert, is this gun legit? I don’t care about the barrel on the gun currently, it’s a piece of junk barrel. But why change it out, what purpose did it serve. I’ m guessing Bert you know the seller? Is the gun with ORIGINAL barrel a “right” gun.
oldcrankyyankee said
Bert H. said
cj57 said
I believe the extra barrel is a real 45-90ELB, but was never on that gun.
I spoke with the owner of the subject rifle, and the extra barrel was the original barrel on that ELW rifle. The barrel on it now was manufactured after the fact (with a much faster twist rate).
Ok Now that is settled, thank you Bert, is this gun legit? I don’t care about the barrel on the gun currently, it’s a piece of junk barrel. But why change it out, what purpose did it serve. I’ m guessing Bert you know the seller? Is the gun with ORIGINAL barrel a “right” gun.
I believe that it is a legitimate 45-90 ELW. The original barrel was not capable of accurately shooting bullets heavier than 300 grains, and the owner wanted to shoot it with the more accurate heavy bullets.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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