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Hi
My first post here as a new member, recently became interested in 64’s & 94’s, so I am new to Winchesters but not a new collector
The WWII serial numbering is just a bit frustrating, have we made any progress in pinning down the serial number ranges for the war years?
I understand the records are missing but has anyone narrowed it down by studying the inspector marks, fonts used in serialization or maybe a study of machining marks?
A good example is one of my 94’s SN 1313055, should be a 42/43 production but enter that in the search on this web site and it returns 41. I know the Polishing Room records can be off by a couple of years.
Anyone out there done any serious research into War Time Records? Are there any recent books that address the issue?
Oh, SN 1313055 has an “o” inspector mark near the trigger if anyone is interested
Just a new collector getting started & looking for answers
PS: Sorry for the double spacing- couldn’t figure out how to make it stop.
Thanks
Vern
Vern,
I am not sure why you find the WW II serial numbering frustrating? Your statement…
“I understand the records are missing…”
is not accurate. There are surviving records for the entire duration of WW II. Furthermore, your statement…
“I know the Polishing Room records can be off by a couple of years.”
is also not accurate. The Polishing Room serialization records are not off at all. Instead, it is the DOM information published by past authors that is off by as much as four years.
In answer to your question(s)
Anyone out there done any serious research into War Time Records? Are there any recent books that address the issue?
Yes, I have completed a considerable amount of research in regards to this subject.
Serial number 1313055 was manufactured in late December of 1941. The last Model 94 manufactured before production was temporarily halted to support the War efforts was serial number 1343183 on 8/23/1942. Production was resumed on a full time basis on 9/24/1945, with serial number 1343271 listed as the last one made on that day. By 12/29/1945, serial numbers had reached 1352066. The annual production numbers were as follows;
1941 – 53,738
1942 – 29,882
1943 – 0
1944 – 13
1945 – 8,870
I wrote an article that appeared in the “WINCHESTER Collector” magazine several years ago that discussed the Model 1894/94 serialization/production. Additionally, I included the Model 1894/94 serializtion/production table in “The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER Values, 3rd Edition”, chapters 7 and 8.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert
Like I said I am new to Winchesters, don’t beat the new guy up too bad .
That is why I joined the forum, to learn from the best of the best
I have been reading your posts for a long time, nice to respond in person. Wow, this is what I suspected, bad data being shared for years. It really messes up the newbies and apparently it is imbedded deeply into the collectors as well as I have had some interesting conversations regarding the War Years. I am here to learn so no harm done.
thanks for the detailed reply
Many of the collectors refuse to use the Polishing Room records to determine date of manufacturer, do you agree with this?
The gun I referenced about does have 41 on the barrel so I am not surprised by what your telling me.
Thanks
Vern
Vern,
I was in no way trying to beat you up. I was only attempting to address each of your comments or assertions with accurate information.
You are correct, there are a fair number of collectors who do not use the PR records (for various reasons), and I prefer to leave it at that.
The “41” marked on your barrel is exactly what it should have.
You are welcome,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert
Were the 13 serial numbers from 1944 a parts clean up or receivers made for spares? 13 seems a very small number during a
hiatus.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
Alan,
They were neither a parts clean-up, or made for spare parts. Of the (13) serial numbers that were made in November 1944, I have found one of them, and it is a Model 64 Deer Rifle. I suspect that most if not all of the (13) were made to fill an order for Model 64 Deer Rifles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
No doubt each one could have been sold a hundred times over, if not more.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
Bert H. said
Vern,I am not sure why you find the WW II serial numbering frustrating? Your statement…
“I understand the records are missing…”
is not accurate. There are surviving records for the entire duration of WW II. Furthermore, your statement…
“I know the Polishing Room records can be off by a couple of years.”
is also not accurate. The Polishing Room serialization records are not off at all. Instead, it is the DOM information published by past authors that is off by as much as four years.
In answer to your question(s)
Anyone out there done any serious research into War Time Records? Are there any recent books that address the issue?
Yes, I have completed a considerable amount of research in regards to this subject.
Serial number 1313055 was manufactured in late December of 1941. The last Model 94 manufactured before production was temporarily halted to support the War efforts was serial number 1343183 on 8/23/1942. Production was resumed on a full time basis on 9/24/1945, with serial number 1343271 listed as the last one made on that day. By 12/29/1945, serial numbers had reached 1352066. The annual production numbers were as follows;
1941 – 53,738
1942 – 29,882
1943 – 0
1944 – 13
1945 – 8,870
I wrote an article that appeared in the “WINCHESTER Collector” magazine several years ago that discussed the Model 1894/94 serialization/production. Additionally, I included the Model 1894/94 serializtion/production table in “The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER Values, 3rd Edition”, chapters 7 and 8.
Bert
I have a Winchester Model 94, serial number 1193367, and most of my research indicates the year of manufacture to be 1942, although one site differed and it claimed 1938. Seeing many different photos none have what mine does and that is what I call a leather shoulder strap. Do you still live in Washington? I reside in Wenatchee.
LARRY RUSSELL said
I have a Winchester Model 94, serial number 1193367, and most of my research indicates the year of manufacture to be 1942, although one site differed and it claimed 1938. Seeing many different photos none have what mine does and that is what I call a leather shoulder strap. Do you still live in Washington? I reside in Wenatchee.
Larry,
The one website that differed, is the one that has the correct information! Your Model 94 was manufactured in October, 1938.
Yes, I am still in Washington (Kingston).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
On the Merz Antiques, a 94 SRC in new, unfired ( after factory ) condition, and made in 1941 is in “sale pending ” mode. Price was $1500. It’s serial number is 1306043. FYI
Bill
Bert H. said
Vern,I am not sure why you find the WW II serial numbering frustrating? Your statement…
“I understand the records are missing…”
is not accurate. There are surviving records for the entire duration of WW II. Furthermore, your statement…
“I know the Polishing Room records can be off by a couple of years.”
is also not accurate. The Polishing Room serialization records are not off at all. Instead, it is the DOM information published by past authors that is off by as much as four years.
In answer to your question(s)
Anyone out there done any serious research into War Time Records? Are there any recent books that address the issue?
Yes, I have completed a considerable amount of research in regards to this subject.
Serial number 1313055 was manufactured in late December of 1941. The last Model 94 manufactured before production was temporarily halted to support the War efforts was serial number 1343183 on 8/23/1942. Production was resumed on a full time basis on 9/24/1945, with serial number 1343271 listed as the last one made on that day. By 12/29/1945, serial numbers had reached 1352066. The annual production numbers were as follows;
1941 – 53,738
1942 – 29,882
1943 – 0
1944 – 13
1945 – 8,870
I wrote an article that appeared in the “WINCHESTER Collector” magazine several years ago that discussed the Model 1894/94 serialization/production. Additionally, I included the Model 1894/94 serializtion/production table in “The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER Values, 3rd Edition”, chapters 7 and 8.
Bert
Vern, I have a # 1,327,444 in the PR 4-1 1942. Just to give you an idea. It has the M55 buttstock and plate. Big Larry
Blueliner said
On the Merz Antiques, a 94 SRC in new, unfired ( after factory ) condition, and made in 1941 is in “sale pending ” mode. Price was $1500. It’s serial number is 1306043. FYIBill
Do you mean this gun? http://merzantiques.com/photo/pre-64-94-carbine
If so, it is not a “SRC”. and the serial number is 1306843.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Only 1 prewar 94 in my gun cabinet. 1169089 I think it is 1938 vintage. Anyway it is one fine carbine complete with factory sling with sling hook on the forearm.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bert H. said
Do you mean this gun? http://merzantiques.com/photo/pre-64-94-carbine
If so, it is not a “SRC”. and the serial number is 1306843.
Bert
Does it seem odd to have the tang D&T’d for a tang sight on this carbine?
[email protected] said
Only 1 prewar 94 in my gun cabinet. 1169089 I think it is 1938 vintage. Anyway it is one fine carbine complete with factory sling with sling hook on the forearm.
John,
Which caliber is it? In my research survey, I have serial number 1169090 (DOM 3-15-1938), and it is a Model 64 standard rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
TXGunNut said
Does it seem odd to have the tang D&T’d for a tang sight on this carbine?
No, it does not. Winchester drilled & tapped the upper tang for a sight up through mid June of 1942. Serial number 1337730 is the earliest I have observed without the tang sight hole in the upper tang, and serial number 1337572 is the highest serial number I have observed that is drilled & tapped. That leaves just a (158) serial number gap between the two.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bert H. said
No, it does not. Winchester drilled & tapped the upper tang for a sight up through mid June of 1942. Serial number 1337730 is the earliest I have observed without the tang sight hole in the upper tang, and serial number 1337572 is the highest serial number I have observed that is drilled & tapped. That leaves just a (158) serial number gap between the two.
Bert
Thanks, seems all the flatbands I’ve seen so far weren’t D&T’d. Good to know, I tend to avoid guns in the gap between D&T’d upper tangs and D&T’d receivers if I plan on shooting them.
Mike,
The Flat band Carbine were not drilled & tapped for a tang sight or a receiver sight (unless special ordered).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Thanks again! Seem to have skipped town without my reference materials or my C&R stuff, guess I won’t be buying any guns!
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