Model 70 factory question|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Hi milboltnut-

I am more of a pre-64 M70 collector than I am a M70 shooter (regardless of DOM).  That’s not to say that I don’t shoot or that my usual “on the farm” deer rifle isn’t a 30-06 pre-64 M70.  Just that I haven’t experimented with stock inletting and effect on the accuracy of a post-63 M70 in 270 WIN. 

So I read your post but haven’t anything useful to add, except that I’d probably try to find out what the gun can do as-is before modifying it for better or ill…

At least one forum member and skilled reloader HAS messed with the 270 WIN in the M70 in the last year.  His thread should be on here somewhere…

Otherwise, I’ll await more informed contributions…

Lou

A pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Standard or Featherweight style that will consistently shoot into less than 2 MOA is all one should reasonably expect, although with extensive load development and [in the case of the Standard rifle] varying barrel tension with the provided screw may yield somewhat tighter groups. Some people have found floating the barrel reduces group size. I think a consistent 1 MOA rifle is rare. 

The 1964 Model 70, for all its cosmetic faults, is provably more accurate out of the box. The barrel is floated and the action is stiffer. 

The pre-64 and later versions of the Model 70 are more than accurate enough as hunting rifles in any reasonable circumstances. They are capable out of the box of far more inherent accuracy than nine out of ten hunters are capable of reaching, much less exceeding. A 2 minute rifle will easily stay within an 8 inch circle at 400 yards. Four hundred yards is just one hell of a long way to be shooting at a live, unwounded game animal. 

Chuck said

Zebulon said
 A 2 minute rifle will easily stay within an 8 inch circle at 400 yards. Four hundred yards is just one hell of a long way to be shooting at a live, unwounded game animal. 
  

I believe if you have a good rifle and load and you have practiced at 400 yds or further, 400 yds is not too far.  Most hunting rifles can shoot well out to 400 yds.  I don’t hunt anymore but I do shoot way farther than 400 yds every week.  I’d feel comfortable beyond 400. 
  

I hope you gentlemen are talking about a 8 Inch Circle free-handed. And are we talking open sights or a scope?

There’s no reason on a solid rest at 400 yards you should be about to cover up your thumbnail all day long with a scope on. As long as nothing is wrong with your rifle. Or yourself for that matter (eyesight being a huge factor). Depending on what part of the country you are in most people don’t shoot past 100-200 yards, especially here in the south. Usually they don’t have the land to shoot much further or its not open enough and has too much cover to see much past 100 yards. I have some places I hunt there are a mix of hardwood bottoms, piney woods, and open agricultural fields. 

I shot a 8pt buck year before last at 375 yards in a open cornfield and you’d thought I shot it off the moon the way some people around me hunt.

Each there own though. Certainly don’t shoot any further or rather any distance at all that you’re not comfortable doing so.

Sincerely,

Maverick

Maverick said

Chuck said

Zebulon said
 A 2 minute rifle will easily stay within an 8 inch circle at 400 yards. Four hundred yards is just one hell of a long way to be shooting at a live, unwounded game animal. 
  

I believe if you have a good rifle and load and you have practiced at 400 yds or further, 400 yds is not too far.  Most hunting rifles can shoot well out to 400 yds.  I don’t hunt anymore but I do shoot way farther than 400 yds every week.  I’d feel comfortable beyond 400. 
  

I hope you gentlemen are talking about a 8 Inch Circle free-handed. And are we talking open sights or a scope?
There’s no reason on a solid rest at 400 yards you should be about to cover up your thumbnail all day long with a scope on. As long as nothing is wrong with your rifle. Or yourself for that matter (eyesight being a huge factor). Depending on what part of the country you are in most people don’t shoot past 100-200 yards, especially here in the south. Usually they don’t have the land to shoot much further or its not open enough and has too much cover to see much past 100 yards. I have some places I hunt there are a mix of hardwood bottoms, piney woods, and open agricultural fields. 
I shot a 8pt buck year before last at 375 yards in a open cornfield and you’d thought I shot it off the moon the way some people around me hunt.
Each there own though. Certainly don’t shoot any further or rather any distance at all that you’re not comfortable doing so.
Sincerely,
Maverick
  

I would lay money that not 1 in 1000 shooters could lay 3 to 5 shots into a thumbnail size group at 400 yds. Either misinformed or never tried it.

I stand by my statement. As long as you have a good bore, factory ammunition, a solid rest or even a “ultra solid rest” like with a “lead sled”. There is no certainly no reason you shouldn’t be able to keep it inside the 10 ring on a target at 400 yards. Depending on the brand of target the bullseye is likely 1 to 3 inches. Most especially with a scope, you should be able to all day long to hit the mark. Or suffice to say the rifle can hit that mark. The user of the rifle is a different story, of course. In computer terms its what I would call a PICNIC. When there is a problem with a computer it is often not a computer problem. PERSON IN CHAIR NOT IN COMPUTER. It is often said when the person themself needs to go on a little Picnic, take a break, go to lunch and when they come back Yogi the Bear (I’m Yogi in the scenario) has magically come in and stole the problem out of the computer.  

Now granted hitting a wild game animal is another ballgame all together. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

P.S. I’ll also agree that most people can’t hit the broad side of a barn! Let alone the door hinge screw on the barn door. 

Zeb-

Regarding pre-64 M70 accuracy… 

I have an old factory document (from 1957) that gives the minimum acceptable group size expected at 100 yards from either G52C or G70C TARGET rifles.  The average of ten 5-shot groups was not to exceed 1.25″ for the M70.  There is a later (not dated) penciled in change to 1.5″.  I do not have a similar document related to the factory’s accuracy expectation for Standard and Featherweight barrels…  I suspect it was about the same…

My anecdotal experience has been that, with the exception of 220 Swift, pre-64 M70 Standard rifles are routinely capable of 1.25″ to 1.5″ 100 yard accuracy with good ammo.  The Featherweights I’ve shot were, on average, not that good but typically under 2″.  The exception is the 220 Swift, b/c I’ve yet to shoot one (with our handloads) that wasn’t sub-MOA at 100 yards and under 1″ at 200 yards. 

My experience may not be typical, but it is what it is…  YMMV…

Lou

If I was shooting for accuracy would give one of the M70 heavy barrel, Target Rifles a go, they’re designed for accuracy.

IMHO, one to two inch groups at 100 yds. is perfectly acceptable accuracy for a sporting rifle

My shooting experience with post-63 Model 70 rifles has been limited to the push feed specimens built in New Haven before Olin sold the Winchester gunmaking operation to USRAC at the end of 1980. Of the three I’ve owned, the only one I’ve shot enough to have an opinion about was a 1966 Standard .243 WCF that was in excellent condition when I bought it off GB about 2001. It is somewhat less ugly than the 1964-65 original cosmetic disaster but it is no thing of beauty. It looks less awkward with the tall Williams iron sights removed and plug screws installed. Mercifully, a milled follower became standard again by 1966. 

On the other hand, this 243 has always shot well with any factory ammunition i cared to put through it. The barrel was hammer forged and is of a fairly heavy contour for a sporter. And the trigger is the same as before. The action is plenty long enough to handle the full length Holland cartridges, the pull only shortened by a bolt stop. I suppose the lack of a controlled round feed didn’t bother me because my first deer rifle had been a Remington 600 carbine. Neither ever misfed or failed to eject because I never short-stroked the bolt. 

The question whether the pre-64 Model 70/Mauser 98 action is “superior” to the Remington 700 style action depends on what quality you most favor. If absolute accuracy is the standard, the question has long since been answered.

Reliability is a more subtle issue because it depends on user skill and construction quality. Harry Selby never had a problem with his post-73 African whereas I might jam one functionless and soil my bush shorts if charged by a wounded Cape Buffalo. On the other hand, a cheaply made mauser clone from Wheredahellistan might snap off it’s badly heat-treated extractor or give up its bolt stop when operated violently.  

However, given the cost of a modern safari for Cape Buffalo or the big cats, or a guided Alaskan hunt for Coastal Grizzly bear,  anybody who can afford such can surely afford a reliable rifle. If I were younger and won the Texas Lotterry,  I expect I would choose a proven Mauser 98 derivative that my gunsmith had given a very close look.