Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Model 54 Carbine 35-Whelen
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
21
March 17, 2024 - 7:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Bert H. said However, it is my belief that the Model 70 receiver frames were Du-Lite solution blued from day one of production, and if not from day one, it was very shortly thereafter.

  

But this is not a Model 70.

  

True, but it is a late production Model 54, and Winchester most likely used the same finishing process for the late production (parts clean-up) Model 54s as they did on the Model 70s.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
LI NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 143
Member Since:
August 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
March 17, 2024 - 7:28 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

So under Bert’s hypothesis, if this late production 54 rcvr was Du-lite solution blued, the rcvr should not be that faded compared to the barrel?

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
March 17, 2024 - 7:30 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Steven Gabrielli said
So under Bert’s hypothesis, if this late production 54 rcvr was Du-lite solution blued, the rcvr should not be that faded compared to the barrel?

  

Steve,

The Du-lite bluing was a much softer color than the older machine bluing.  Take a look at the early Model 70s for an example.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
24
March 17, 2024 - 7:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Steven Gabrielli said
So under Bert’s hypothesis, if this late production 54 rcvr was Du-lite solution blued, the rcvr should not be that faded compared to the barrel?

IF it was Dulite blued, it must have been exposed to a sand-storm to have lost so much of its original finish.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
March 15, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
25
March 17, 2024 - 7:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The action and barrel are from the same year, 27. 

Avatar
LI NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 143
Member Since:
August 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
March 17, 2024 - 7:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ok got it thx. I forgot the serial number was blurred out for some reason, so I really don’t even know when this 54 was made.

Avatar
LI NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 143
Member Since:
August 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
March 17, 2024 - 7:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ha we posted at the same time, well that answers that.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
March 15, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
March 17, 2024 - 7:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ha, funny confidence. But yes, barrel and action both date to 27. The Bolt is also matched to action.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10978
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
March 17, 2024 - 8:53 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Wyatt said
Ha, funny confidence. But yes, barrel and action both date to 27. The Bolt is also matched to action.

  

My mistake… for some reason I was thought it was a mid 1930s rifle. My Model 54 rifle (.30 GOV’T 06) is also a 1927 production rifle, and the bluing on it looks nearly identical to your rifle.  That stated, it does not look the same as the machine blued lever-action rifles that were manufactured in the mid to late 1920s.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 531
Member Since:
August 27, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
March 17, 2024 - 8:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Are there any other known examples of 35 Whelen under barrel and caliber stamps on a factory Winchester barrel?

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
March 15, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
March 17, 2024 - 9:31 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

IMG_2795.jpegImage EnlargerTedk said
Are there any other known examples of 35 Whelen under barrel and caliber stamps on a factory Winchester barrel?

  

TedK

yes, in the Rule book there is a 35 Whelen, # 35,117A (1931),  Yearout Rifle that’s stamped 9mm underneath. However, I believe the 9mm was released in 28. Which makes me believe a barrel prior to that wouldn’t have bore the 9mm marking. 

Other examples in the 54 book were later short rifles but had no mention of under barrel markings. I’ve added a picture of the earliest 35 whelen mentioned in the 54 book. Again though, no mention of under barrel markings sadly. 

Wyatt

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 11
Member Since:
March 15, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
March 17, 2024 - 9:32 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Also, caliber marking on 35 Whelen in Rule book reads same. (35 Whelen). 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4344
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
33
March 17, 2024 - 9:33 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I was reviewing Loyd Thomsen’s April 2009, “The Forgotten 54” article in the Spring, 2009 WACA magazine.  Sadly, he doesn’t make mention of the .35 Whelen.  Interestingly, Loyd is a collector who owned a good number of M54’s, including special order rifles in .219 Zipper, .25-20, .25-35, .32 Special, .38-55 and others.  He also references .300 Savage, .303 British and .30-40 Krag.  

I suspect the .35 Whelen, or any of the cartridges I listed above, were never mentioned in any Winchester literature or catalog as available in the Model 54.   

By the way, the .25-20 is the most intriguing to me.  Mainly because of the extent to which the action would need to be modified.  It must have been one important customer for Winchester to agree to that order!

Avatar
LI NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 143
Member Since:
August 14, 2021
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
March 17, 2024 - 9:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

The Bichrest book on page 136 list Carbine 7344 as .35 Whelen special order barrel dated 1925. We could use the sn of the carbine of the OP for the record.

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
March 17, 2024 - 10:41 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi All-

I had to take a quick “walking tour” around the gun room before posting a response.  I’ll try posting a photo of M54 1st standard rifle S/N 37315A.  This one, circa 1931, is later than Wyatt’s rifle.  It’s a 30 WCF in very high condition with what I believe to be original finishes. 

M54-blue.jpegImage Enlarger

I think that the similarities with Wyatt’s rifle will come across.  One curious point is that the M54 receivers were bead blasted (hence the “dull” finish) while early M70s were not.

As for bluing methods…  It is my understanding (and something that gave me another reason for walking around the room this afternoon comparing serial numbers and finishes) that pre-war M54 and M70 BARRELS were acid rust blued.  The RECEIVERS differ in appearance b/c the M54 receivers were bead blasted and the (early) M70 receivers were polished.  As for the bluing technique involved, I think that prior to 1939 M54/70 parts (that were not barrels) were machine blued (carbonum or bone charcoal).  It would look quite different on a bead blasted receiver than a polished one.  The charcoal blue is a big reason why the bottom metal on both M54s and early M70s is usually “brown”.  The finish just didn’t hold up well on the bottom metal steel alloy used in either.

I believe that the change to hot salt immersion blue for M70 parts (other than barrels), occurred around S/N 20,500 (1939).  This is when/why the factory went back to bead blasting M70 receivers (customer complaints about glare may have been another)…

Hope this helps…

Lou

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
36
March 17, 2024 - 11:15 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said
I believe that the change to hot salt immersion blue for M70 parts (other than barrels), occurred around S/N 20,500 (1939).  This is when/why the factory went back to bead blasting M70 receivers (customer complaints about glare may have been another)…

Lou,  I have a ’39 (24408) that appears to me to have a polished rcvr., though by no means polished to a “glare.”  Strong blue & very little diff in appearance from the rust-blued brl.  If it was bead-blasted, it bears no resemblance to your 54 above.

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
March 17, 2024 - 11:36 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Clarence-

I’ve no doubt you are correct (and so is your rifle)… Laugh

These changeover dates are “approximate”…  Winchester never specifically advertised such “minor” changes so they’re largely based on “observation”…  In putting together my reply above I didn’t even consult the survey, just quoted Rule’s book…  Unless the survey is off-base, the big changeover in receiver finishes (according to the survey) was in the 23,000-24,000 range…  Not to say Roger is wrong exactly… He makes a point of saying that the dates/serial numbers he gives are the earliest that a new feature appeared…

It’s also true that sometimes a very “light hand” seems to have been used when bead blasting.  I have one, S/N 50821, that to my eye looks polished (and not reblued)…  Maybe the guy on the assembly line was in a hurry to get to lunch that day??? Wink

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
38
March 17, 2024 - 11:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said
It’s also true that sometimes a very “light hand” seems to have been used when bead blasting.  I have one, S/N 50821, that to my eye looks polished (and not reblued)…  Maybe the guy on the assembly line was in a hurry to get to lunch that day??? Wink

If so, I’m glad of it!  Don’t fancy that heavily “blasted” surface.

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1008
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39
March 18, 2024 - 2:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Clarence-

Aesthetically, I agree… 

My favorite M70s are the type I-1 through I-3 receivers with polished charcoal blue.  Despite having been applied by a very different method, the blue on those receivers looks very much like the “soft” blue on the (rust blued) barrels.  

It’s one reason why my relatively modest M70 collection is disproportionately is composed of pre-war guns.  You know… The ones you don’t like b/c the bridge was not factory D&T for a scope mount…  LaughLaughLaugh

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 6522
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
40
March 18, 2024 - 2:26 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said It’s one reason why my relatively modest M70 collection is disproportionately is composed of pre-war guns.  You know… The ones you don’t like b/c the bridge was not factory D&T for a scope mount…  Laugh

The pre-wars are virtually the ONLY ones I care for; I don’t hold the short-sighted stupidity of Win execs against them. 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Online: JWA, clarence, Antonio, Randycrockett, Blue Ridge Parson, wclary
Guest(s) 60
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6522
TXGunNut: 5190
Chuck: 4669
steve004: 4344
1873man: 4330
Big Larry: 2359
twobit: 2323
mrcvs: 1773
TR: 1731
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12926
Posts: 112694

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1791
Members: 8935
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation