Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Please see the attached photos of my M-1866, Serial Number 81351FB Nickle Plated with Cresent Butt Plate, Mfg. 1871. A little rough but at least one interesting question. Look closely at the serial # photo and you will observe the punched letters FB. Any comments would be of interest?
Those are inspector stamps
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob, well you made that easy for me. Inspectors marks, that would make sense, is it ordinary to see them punched in that location? Is there any history and bio on who FB is? For your consideration , the ownership history on this SRC, is attributed via Indian hieroglyphics “scratched” into the receiver. Thanks for your input now and in the future.
John,
normal it’s a lone letter and a “B” was common along with others.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Verifying Factory Nickle on my 1866 serial 81351 FB, year of production 1871 ?
Regrettably, no factory production detail exist for this serial number. As I noted above, this carbine is Nickle plated, my unanswered question is the plating original at time of production or even to the factory?
I am able to properly disassembly this carbine and inspect surfaces etc. Forensically, can any members offer their observations on production, both primary and secondary machining operations. For example dimensions of machined assembly surfaces before or after plating, or for that matter plated or un-plated interactive surfaces? Were surfaces masked before machining, In strategic areas, were surfaces machined after plating? Perhaps other production observations have been made, things that have escaped my thinking? ALL commentary would be welcomed.
My best, John M
Machining any surface would ruin the plating on it, so they would not have machined it after plating. After plating they likely would have polished it by hand.
I’m no expert on Nickel, but it does look rather old. But with it being a carbine and the amount of use it saw, I’m surprised that there is not more flaking of the plating.
If you find any plating inside any pitting, that is a sign it has been re-plated.
Have you pulled the side plates off? What do the internals look like?
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
John,
Post a bunch more good clear pictures. that is how we can tell.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob & Maverick:
More pictures will be easy , I have photo light box and will get to that this week. The side plate removal will take longer, I want to get to shared workshop space for that. Your comments are very much appreciated. JM
November 7, 2015
Offline
The apparent presence of copper under the plating suggests to me the subject rifle was chrome plated, not nickel. I’m probably mistaken but I don’t think copper is part of the nickel process.
Mike
Mike,
Where are you seeing copper?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
Offline
1873man said
Mike,Where are you seeing copper?
Bob
Bob-
On the worn edges of the second picture. Am I mistaken? My iPad takes pleasure in pulling my leg.
Mike
Mike,
I circled the only area that looks like it could be copper colored at the lower rear edge. The rest of the worn corners i see no sign that it had copper. I account that small area to a light reflection.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
Offline
1873man said
Mike,I circled the only area that looks like it could be copper colored at the lower rear edge. The rest of the worn corners i see no sign that it had copper. I account that small area to a light reflection.
Bob
Good eye, Bob. I concede the difference between gun metal and copper may be tough to tell in pics but we’ve seen steel plated with chrome. I don’t know the process for plating an 1866.
Mike
Mike,
Original gun plating was put directly on the metal and it wasn’t until later they found copper flashing helped the plating stick better. So yes, If you found copper under a plated gun it is a sign of replating in modern times by someone that doesn’t know what they were doing. My brother had a colt 1911 he wanted nickeled so he had a factory that plated parts in town plate it for him and when he got it back he found they copper flashed it first and the problem was with the copper and nickel the parts it fit too tight and had to sand and polish to get the gun to work. Then the nickel peeled by the ejection port leaving a nice patch of copper.
From what I see the plating looks real but a good look at all parts of the gun would answer any questions.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
November 7, 2015
Offline
1873man said
Mike,Original gun plating was put directly on the metal and it wasn’t until later they found copper flashing helped the plating stick better. So yes, If you found copper under a plated gun it is a sign of replating in modern times by someone that doesn’t know what they were doing. My brother had a colt 1911 he wanted nickeled so he had a factory that plated parts in town plate it for him and when he got it back he found they copper flashed it first and the problem was with the copper and nickel the parts it fit too tight and had to sand and polish to get the gun to work. Then the nickel peeled by the ejection port leaving a nice patch of copper.
From what I see the plating looks real but a good look at all parts of the gun would answer any questions.
Bob
Bob-
I’m not picking at the subject gun, I have an automotive background and have seen chrome plating on guns and know it isn’t a good idea. I have no idea what the process was to nickel plate the 1866. My reference library is unavailable and my internet time is dominated these days by contractors and searches for a replacement vehicle. A nickel 1866 is an awesome find. As I understand it chrome needs copper to adhere to steel or brass, maybe other metals. On a good day I can spell “metallurgy”, on my best day I won’t claim to understand it.
Mike
Judging from the two pictures it appears to be nickle over gun metal. That’s the way it was done by Winchester and others of the period. The nickle would wear better to protect the gun metal but on steel it was more likely to flake with age. Today gun restorers plate without copper to duplicate the old finish. T/R
Gentlemen, your commentary is greatly respected. As I mentioned I will offer many more photo’s, which I promise will be of a far greater quality. Within my initial posting, I attempted to question if Nickle plating and standard 66 factory tolerances, machining and otherwise, might create a conflicted fit wise. As Bob noted about the 1911, the application of plating impaired the action of his brothers Colt. I remain curious if there were preliminary or secondary “factory processes” which permitted proper carbine action function, post Nickle plating?
John M
John and others, I wrote up a reply then deleted it but will do it again in hopes it helps. First the qualifiers. I have a model 1873 SRC that was engraved then nickled (plus gold washedd) after it left the factory. Years ago I opened it up and discussed what I found with someone–probably 1873 Man. If so he has a better memory than I now days, so maybe he can chip in here. I seem to recall some of the internal surfaces showed evidence of some plating being removed by abrasion to allow reassembly. I am thinking the sideplates where they have the grooves to mate with the receiver, maybe. And maybe the toggle links. But my memory just isn’t clear on the details, just the main idea that some was removed to refit the carbine together again. I will not go inside the carbine again, so you have to work with my poor recollections as best they are now. Tim
tim tomlinson said
John and others, I wrote up a reply then deleted it but will do it again in hopes it helps. First the qualifiers. I have a model 1873 SRC that was engraved then nickled (plus gold washedd) after it left the factory. Years ago I opened it up and discussed what I found with someone–probably 1873 Man. If so he has a better memory than I now days, so maybe he can chip in here. I seem to recall some of the internal surfaces showed evidence of some plating being removed by abrasion to allow reassembly. I am thinking the sideplates where they have the grooves to mate with the receiver, maybe. And maybe the toggle links. But my memory just isn’t clear on the details, just the main idea that some was removed to refit the carbine together again. I will not go inside the carbine again, so you have to work with my poor recollections as best they are now. Tim
I’d sure like to see the photos of it!
Tim,
Sent you a email with the conversation we had about it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1 Guest(s)
