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Kevin Jones said
I find this one much more appealing, both for it’s historical significance the and the rifle itself.
The most recent rifle is the genuine deal. The other one was discussed on this forum as possibly being not. If you take away the watch from that grouping, what do you have? A serial #1 gun, but is a serial #1 gun all by itself worth over a Million? I think that is an interesting question.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
deerhunter said
RI states that it came from the Mac McCroskie collection this time around. Is that the guy?
No, it is not the guy. If I see the person I know it will be in Vegas. I’ll see if he will talk about it.
November 7, 2015
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Maverick said
The most recent rifle is the genuine deal. The other one was discussed on this forum as possibly being not. If you take away the watch from that grouping, what do you have? A serial #1 gun, but is a serial #1 gun all by itself worth over a Million? I think that is an interesting question.
Sincerely,
Maverick
That’s a valid point, Maverick. At the time of presentation the watch was reportedly worth $1000, many times the likely purchase price of the rifle. But if the watch is more valuable than the rifle today I doubt it would have been sold by an auction house specializing in firearms. Anybody know anything about collectable watches?
Mike
Maverick said
The most recent rifle is the genuine deal. The other one was discussed on this forum as possibly being not. If you take away the watch from that grouping, what do you have? A serial #1 gun, but is a serial #1 gun all by itself worth over a Million? I think that is an interesting question.
Sincerely,
Maverick
If not real, someone should went through a tremendous amount of time and effort putting together what looks to be about a ream of paper showing rife’s provenance.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said
If not real, someone should went through a tremendous amount of time and effort putting together what looks to be about a ream of paper showing rife’s provenance.
Does the ream of paper show the rifle’s provenance? Or just the watch’s? I find it interesting that no Cody letter was shown. I’m assuming it must not of revealed anything of importance. Somebody also when through a ream of paper paying for it!
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
When I click on the link it goes to a Rock Island page but never to this rifle.
What was the pre auction estimate?
The high end was 750K I think
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
steve004 said
I was wonder who here got itDidn’t Winchester M1886 serial number 1 sell in the last couple years? For over a million? I can’t recall now.
hammered at 1.2 but it was given to to the agent that captured geronimo from the VP of Winchester with an engraving denoting such. Provenance out the ass on that one. it was at the time the highest price for a single firearm. Topped only by George Washington’s Dueling pistols. my memory is fuzzy tho I could be wrong.
patrick tompkins said
hammered at 1.2 but it was given to to the agent that captured geronimo from the VP of Winchester with an engraving denoting such. Provenance out the ass on that one. it was at the time the highest price for a single firearm. Topped only by George Washington’s Dueling pistols. my memory is fuzzy tho I could be wrong.
The provenance on that one was sketchy at best.
patrick tompkins said
hammered at 1.2 but it was given to to the agent that captured geronimo from the VP of Winchester with an engraving denoting such. Provenance out the ass on that one. it was at the time the highest price for a single firearm. Topped only by George Washington’s Dueling pistols. my memory is fuzzy tho I could be wrong.
Forgive my ignorance, but I fail to see where or how you find a connection that you state the rifle was given to the agent from the “VP of Winchester” with an engraving denoting such. The Vice President of Winchester from 1882-1889 was Thomas G. Bennett. T.G. Bennett and George E. Albee are not the same person. The engraving is Albee to Lawton.
The auction listing mentions a mysterious letter from a “T.S. Bennett” (I don’t know if that is a typo in the listing or not, as I don’t see the letter) to Lt. Albee. But why in the hell would you post all those other reams of paper and not show this very letter? Or a Cody Letter for that matter? Very odd to me, and not a good business practice in my opinion. As two of the most important letters of perpetual evidence of the supposed provenance is not shown.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing the gun sold for a lot of money but sound provenance I don’t see. People will due plenty to try and up the sale price on a rare collectible such as this one. Look at the rarest baseball card, the Honus Wagner. In October 2013, Bill Mastro, CEO of Mastro Auctions (the owner of Robert Edward Auctions) pleaded guilty to mail fraud in U.S. District Court and later admitted to the court that he had trimmed the “Gretzky” Wagner card to sharply increase its value. Which he had sold in the year 2000 for 1.27 million.
So just because something sells for a lot of money, doesn’t inherently make the item have sound provenance.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I rejoined WACA, but figured I’d wait before jumping back into the circus. I just can’t let this one go by without adding my two cents into it. Lawton was the officer in charge of the soldiers trying to capture Geronimo, not the officer that actually did. A Lt. Gatewood, along with Apache scouts were the men that convinced Geronmo to give up, not Lawton. Lawton got a Winchester rifle and the watch, Gatewood got transffered to “Never, Never Land”. More interesting though was the Winchester rifle that was given to General Nelson Miles. Miles ordered that Geronimo’s rifle taken at his surrender be sent to him as a war souvenir. He didn’t want to be at the actual surrender because of the political implications should Geronimo escape once again. He, it is claimed to have said “He won’t see Geronimo until he’s wrapped in chains”. An officer supposedly followed the General’s order, and sent Miles his surrendered “Winchester”. One problem though with this, Geronimo was known NOT to favor repeating rifles. Throughout the Apache Wars he was known to have carried a Sharps and or a Springfield Trapdoor in actual combat with the Mexican and American Armies. The Sharps was surrendered by Geronimo to the future newspaper owner John Clum, then an Army Scout. It now resides in the West Point Museum in New York. The last time at his surrender in September of 1886 nothing is mentioned of a firearm. In the last photographs taken of him at the surrender talks with General Crook in March of 1886 he carried a Springfield Model 1879 Trapdoor rifle. No one knows what happened to this firearm, but it is the only firearm to actually be held by him and photographed while he was still in combat with the U.S. Now that would be worth a Million Bucks! (Apache) 
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