Sorry, I was discussing too many different rifles in the same thread.

And to start with, my levity on the topic was interpreted as seriousness.  With reference to the rate of twist of the smoothbore rifle, I made that quip because of course, a smoothbore has no rifling and hence there is not rate of twist.

Maverick – thank you for including the Cody letter regarding number of .50 caliber smoothbores they count in their records.  I just printed it out for my records.  I agree the .50 caliber smoothbore would be much nicer than shooting a .410 shotgun.  I’ve had a fascination with .50 caliber rifles for a long time.  I’ve owned one ’86 in .50-110.  It had a 32 inch full octagon barrel and full magazine.  I traded it off long ago and it is extremely high on the list of those I wish I had never let go. My fascination with .50 caliber rifles extend beyond the Model 1886 Winchester.  Colt Express rifles and Whitney-Kennedy rifles in .50-95 and Bullard rifles in both .50-95 and .50-115 have also been an area of interest and study four many decades.  Smoothbore repeating rifles are of interest, particularly so in .50 caliber rifles.  My Standard Arms Camp .50 is an example.  This slide action repeating rifle/shotgun was advertised for use with, “buck or ball” and is a .50 caliber smooth bore.  What cartridge is it chambered for?  Well, this is an area of intense study on my part as NO ONE KNOWS what cartridge it is chambered in.  No one has seen a box of cartridges.  A few references state it was chambered for some sort of .50-70 shot cartridge.  

Years ago, I talked to George Fink, a Standard Arms researcher who owned and studied these rifles.  He has done a chamber cast on his.  I asked him what the result was and he said, “it posed more questions than it answered.”  I haven’t done a chamber cast on mine and don’t feel I need to.  In fact, my study of my rifle lead to me to flip the paradigm and rather than pose the question, “what cartridge is it chambered for?” to, “what cartridge isn’t it chambered for?”

I say that because I have chambered a variety of cartridges in it and they all chamber!  Below are four I tried – .50-110 bulleted cartridge, .50-110 shot cartridge, .50-95 shot cartridge and .50-70 shot cartridge:

Here’s one with the .50-110 shot cartridge sitting on top of the magazine follower:

Fully chambered:

Ready to go in:

The only thing I did prove was that the one cartridge that does not work for this gun is the one cartridge that the reference books say it is chambered for.  That is, the .50-70.  Yes, the .50-70 will chamber, but the it is too wide at the rim to clear the ejection port.  The .50-110’s and the .50-95 will clear the ejection port.  I mentioned I felt there was no need for a chamber cast.  Well, if a full .50-110 case will chamber, we know it is not any sort of bottle necked cartridge.  The chamber is just a straight-fall chamber.  This makes me wonder if they planned that most any .50 caliber available could be used?  This whole rifle makes little sense and if I recall correctly, the company as in its death throws when it came out.  I believe around 30 or 40 were made.  It took me a couple decades to find this one.  In the few years following, I had an opportunity to purchase about three or four more.  I passed.  

Well, I certainly fell into a tangent here.  However as I mentioned, this .50 caliber stuff is one of my passions.  Once something trips that trigger, I’m off to the races.  Let me settle my thoughts back down and go back and try to clarify some of my remarks about the 1886 .50’s that were confusing

oldcrankyyankee said
I was looking at this big 50 smooth bore and I just noticed it is a take down. I see that there is not a Cody letter with it. I wonder if by chance it was built as a two barrel set. Long shot but would be interesting. 

  

Yes, it was made outside of the letterable range – so who knows.  It would be logical that it could have been ordered as a special purpose barrel in a two barrel set.  As always, we yearn to know what the original purchaser had in mind, and what sort of use the rifle actually saw.  I can imagine the original purchaser excitedly talking to his friends about the order he just placed… wow – to be a fly on the wall and listen to those conversations!

oldcrankyyankee said
Also see RIA has a 1892 smooth bore in 44-wcf. Nice little snake charmer there.

  

I had noticed that one.  The smoothbores are interesting among collectors.  They are very rare, but a lot of collectors are not interested in them.  I had one once.  A M1886 .45-70 ELW, pistol grip, take-down, checkered (not deluxe wood) with a Lyman No. 21 (or No. 38 – I can’t remember for sure) with no rear sight dovetail.  So, the long range receiver sight – obviously not an add-on given, the rear dovetail – in a smoothbore rifle!  Alas, this was a later rifle outside the letterable range.  I recall the bore measured under .458 – so it had not been bored out to smoothbore. By the way, it was not marked, “smoothbore” anywhere on the barrel.

There were three possibilities:  1) the rifle was all original (and perhaps had been part of a two barrel set), 2) the barrel was from another rifle and not original to the rifle, or 3), someone had a smoothbore liner installed.  Interestingly, the rifle was in very high condition with no refinishing or other alterations.  When I had it, there was little serious interest in it.  It was an oddity – a great conversation piece – but the collector’s didn’t want it.  The formidable, “it doesn’t letter” reared it’s head very strongly.  I recall one collector suggested I have the barrel rifled.  Given the high condition and the desirability of being a .45-70, TD, pistol grip, checkered stocks, Lyman sight (with no rear dovetail) and so on, he thought it would be much more valuable rifled than as it sat.  I ended up trading it off.   Kind of wished I still had it.  Talk about a fun small bird gun!

While I’m thinking about it, I wonder how the rifle would have performed with lead bullets, or lead round balls?  There is no rifling but we send lead slugs down smooth shotgun bores all the time.  I realize velocity and accuracy would be impacted, but a short range deer rifle?  Yeah, I wish I had it back as I might have experimented with it.  It would be no different in concept than my Standard Arms Camp .50 “buck and ball.”  As I ponder this, maybe the .45-70 case loaded with 2 or 3 .45 round balls?  Now I really wish I had it back!  Anyone out there have it?

While were on the topic of smoothbores, we know that Winchester made very limited numbers in various Winchester models.  Over the years, I’ve seen examples in the M1873, 1886, 1892, 1894.  Off the top of my head, I can’t remember one in a M1876 (although vaguely I think I do) and I’m thinking I haven’t seen one in Model 1895.  Other than noting in some catalogs that smoothbore barrels were available for some models as an option, what I don’t recall is any Winchester advertising promoting their use or application.  The same would be true for Marlins.  Marlin also offered a smoothbore option for a period.  I think I’ve seen a few in their Model 1894 .44-40, one or two in their Model 1895 and one in their Model 1893.  Again, I don’t recall any promotion for their smoothbores.  Oh, and I think I recall one or two Savage Model 1899 in smoothbore.

The above explains why the Standard Arms Camp .50 smoothbore surprised me.  Standard Arms did promote it (briefly):

With the Standard Arms promotional materials, there is no shortage of claims for the smoothbore’s capability and applicability.  Example:  “The arm which will be found in every up-to-date deer camp, and used by those ever on the alert for the latest development in firearms.”  Also of impressive verbiage:  “Great penetration and shocking power, with extreme accuracy and light recoil.”  I think even the Winchester ad men were not up to making statements this grand.

Of great interest to me:  

“Shoots shot cartridges or single ball cartridges work equally well, using same shell and powder charge furnished by such standard ammunition manufacturers such as Remington-Arms U.M.C. Co., Winchester Repeating Arms Co., and Peters Cartridges Company.”  My question – what cartridges are they referring to?  This gets back to my speculation earlier – that most any centerfire .50 caliber shot cartridge would work.  In fact, a Standard Arms collector I know (quite the rarity in itself), said when he examined the inside of his barrel, he noted there was no variation for a chamber – in other words, a straight tube from the breech to end of the muzzle.  It’s easy to see how a variety of cartridges would chamber. 

By chance, any Winchester cartridge collectors here aware of a .50 caliber shot (or ball cartridge) made for the Standard Arms Camp .50?  This would be circa about 1912 to 1914.  

Bert – that is a rare and interesting box of cartridges.  I really enjoyed that the cartridges looked like they are in fantastic condition.  The box looked nice too.  It looks like they used their standard box for .50-95 cartridges and added two stickers to make it a box for shot cartridges.  It is interesting that they are marked for single-shot rifles only.  I suspect very few .50-95 Winchester rifles were made in their single-shot rifle.

I believe these cartridges would work in my Standard Arms Camp .50.  I suspect this box was made before the Camp .50 was introduced.  To my knowledge, there is no box of cartridges that specifies uses for the Camp .50.  But I sure would like to find one.

Thanks for posting.