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The federal law (regulation) that spells out what a “Antique” firearm is found here;
U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an “Antique” firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
This is what the BATF must adhere to in regards to “what” an Antique firearm is. They have NO latitude with this U.S. Code (law).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
quantrez said
The ATF has released their Federal Firearms Regulation Reference Guide updated for 2014 it covers the Antique Firearm definition check it out
for yourself
The BATF does not have the authority to rewrite U.S. Code… they are tasked with enforcing it only. As strange as it may seem, there are numerous errors in the material found on the BATF website.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wincacher said
I looked up Section 2.2 of the link, Antique Firearms, and came up with this:
NFA firearms using fixed ammunition are antique firearms only if the weapon was actually
manufactured in or before 1898 and the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the
United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an
antique firearm, a fixed cartridge firing NFA weapon must meet both the age and ammunition
availability standards of the definition.THAT WOULD MAKE ALL MODEL 1873’S NON-ANTIQUE BECAUSE AMMO FOR THOSE RIFLES’ CALIBERS ARE STILL BEING MADE.
Then I found this:
Section 2.1 Types of NFA firearms
The NFA defines the specific types of firearms subject to the provisions of the Act. These definitions
describe the function, design, configuration and/or dimensions that weapons must have to be NFA
firearms.2.1.3 Rifle. A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of
an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull
of the trigger.11 A rifle subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.So it appears that the ATF link above is meaningless for our purposes.
The BATF is in error in regards to ammo restrictions for firearms manufactured prior to January 1st, 1899. The ammo restriction applies to replicas only.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Online
I would think the ATF reference guide is just their interpretation of the US Code.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I would think the ATF reference guide is just their interpretation of the US Code.
Bob
Bob,
You are correct, and the operative term is ‘interpretation”. The BATF is staffed by people who are not attorneys/lawyers, and as a result, they have mistakes in the information on their website. The U.S. Code is actually very clear, and leaves no room for ‘interpretation”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Two comments here:
1) Don’t get me wrong, I do like the fact that the Polishing Room Records are available, but it is a little disappointing that the “rules were changed” so late in the game. I know that folks do pay a premium, sometimes up to 20%, because a firearm is antique, so I am sure that some folks did pay this premium, only to discover, later, that their firearm is not antique. Fortunately, my antique firearms tend to be very early, in general, so this did not apply to me, personally, but I am sure it did apply to many individuals out there. Conversely, because the number of truly antique (pre-1894) Winchesters out there has diminished, especially in the case of the Model 1894, does that make them even more valuable?
2) In my work environment, I deal with Federal regulations, and they are created by folks in Washington, often with little ‘real world’ experience. Many are vague and one comes to mind in that it clearly states ‘in the opinion of the inspector’. It seems to me that BATF regulations are open to interpretation, and enforced one way by one individual and in another manner by another Federal official. In fact, the criticism I often hear in my industry is that there is lack of uniformity in the manner regulations are enforced.
Lastly, just an opinion. I realize that the Gun Control Act of 1968 arbitrarily defined an antique firearm to be one greater than 70 years old (hence, pre-1899). It seems like to me that this is rather antiquated and the definition should be revised to include later firearms, as few firearms produced prior to WWI (or even WWII) are being used in a criminal manner. HAVING SAID THAT, also, maybe it is best to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ as maybe many out there are probably unaware of the fabulous freedoms allowed by dabbling in pre-1899 firearms, versus everything else. Indeed, I thought that this might all come to an end several years ago when an elderly individual fired shots in the Capitol with an antique firearm that belonged to his father (I believe it was a Winchester 1890, if I recall correctly).
Bert H. said
The federal law (regulation) that spells out what a “Antique” firearm is found here;
U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an “Antique” firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
This is what the BATF must adhere to in regards to “what” an Antique firearm is. They have NO latitude with this U.S. Code (law).
Bert
This thread has gone way off on a tangent that wasn’t my intent when I started it.
Bert’s post has always been the rule, no questions asked.
All I want to know is what serial numbers does BATF use to determine a Winchester is an antique since there are 2 sets of serial number data and when is an FFL search needed when purchasing a “borderline” Winchester antique.
Does BATF use the real DOM data or do they use Madis” DOM data?
I can find nothing on the internet that supports their use of Polishing Room serial numbers. I am looking for something one can print out and take to a gun show or a gun dealer to prove what requires a background check and what doesn’t.
This whole thread was started because right now there is a nice 1894 Winchester 2 barrel TD on auction on Gunbroker. The seller shows a Cody letter that states the rifle was made in 1902 and states in his write-up the NO FFL is required and he can ship directly to one’s home because it “was manufactured before 1898 and is considered an antique”. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466708322
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I don’t think your going to find anything in writing beyond the definition of antique. It will not be in the US code. If there is any thing it will be a BATF internal memo. You will need to contact them and ask for a written clarification and by then the gun could be gone.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bert,
I said that the seller will be the only one that gets in trouble for sending a modern gun and you replied that the receiving party can be held at fault. How do you come to that conclusion? I can understand that if its a illegal weapon or stolen property. In my experience its the shipper who has the responsibility to properly ship the item.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
As far as I know Bob it is the seller who is responsibility to know the law
Bert is basing his ideas from the written law which has been in place since 1968 and has been accepted as law .
That has been the norm for about 47 years I figure that it is a fairly safe bet that that ur still safe there.
Leroy Merz ships a lot of Winchesters I think on that we can all agree? Call Mr. Merz and ask him what
serial numbers he goes by in defining an antique Model 1894 what ever he is going by is bound to be OK
Maybe Bert will post the phone number and person his is in contact with at the ATF?
Antique firearms are not really considered NFA firearms all I really was relating to was their description of
Antique Firearms. By the way the hand book has just been updated so it is current
If you want more information call the BATF National Firearms Branch
304-616-4500
244 Needy Road
Martinsburg Wv 25405
I assure when you call ( and I have called them a couple of times ) you will find it interesting at the leas
1873man said
Bert,
I said that the seller will be the only one that gets in trouble for sending a modern gun and you replied that the receiving party can be held at fault. How do you come to that conclusion? I can understand that if its a illegal weapon or stolen property. In my experience its the shipper who has the responsibility to properly ship the item.
Bob
Bob,
The buyer also shares responsibility to conduct the transaction and transfer according to the written law, both federal and state. The legal system does not, or will not allow for “ignorance” of the law. In a legal sense, if the out of state buyer allows it to be shipped directly to him/her, they are now an accessory to the crime, having violated their own state laws. For what it is worth, I have a good friend who is an attorney, and an acquaintance who sits on the Washington State Supreme Court.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wincacher said
Bert H. said
The federal law (regulation) that spells out what a “Antique” firearm is found here;
U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an “Antique” firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
This is what the BATF must adhere to in regards to “what” an Antique firearm is. They have NO latitude with this U.S. Code (law).
Bert
This thread has gone way off on a tangent that wasn’t my intent when I started it.
Bert’s post has always been the rule, no questions asked.
All I want to know is what serial numbers does BATF use to determine a Winchester is an antique since there are 2 sets of serial number data and when is an FFL search needed when purchasing a “borderline” Winchester antique.
Does BATF use the real DOM data or do they use Madis” DOM data?
I can find nothing on the internet that supports their use of Polishing Room serial numbers. I am looking for something one can print out and take to a gun show or a gun dealer to prove what requires a background check and what doesn’t.
This whole thread was started because right now there is a nice 1894 Winchester 2 barrel TD on auction on Gunbroker. The seller shows a Cody letter that states the rifle was made in 1902 and states in his write-up the NO FFL is required and he can ship directly to one’s home because it “was manufactured before 1898 and is considered an antique”. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=466708322
The BATF uses the list that I posted (Table 3 in Chapter 7 of The RED BOOK of WINCHESTER Values). If/when any doubt may exist, they contact the Cody research office. I was contacted by the BATF office in Arizona by email several years ago, and after several back and forth messages, I was asked if I would entertain a phone call, which I agreed to. After a 45-minute friendly conversation with one of their senior agents, they asked for copy of the antique serial number cut-off list I had created from the Polishing Room Records at the Cody research office. The BATF has not ever published a list, either in writing or on their website, and the reason for that is due to the large amount of additional information that is needed from all of the other firearms manufacturers (e.g. Colt, Ithaca, Marlin, Remington, Smith & Wesson, etc.).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
George Madis has been thrown under the bus. Without his research, Winchester collectors would still be stuck in the ’50’s.
During that time, how many ac in cars, computer, internet, and cell phones?
Walter
George hasn’t been discarded. He wrote a great book and I learned a lot from it, its only a small part that was in error.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Hi Bob
What was in error?
I know there are a lot of problems in the 1890’s on 92’s and 94’s.
Walter
1873man said
George hasn’t been discarded. He wrote a great book and I learned a lot from it, its only a small part that was in error.
Bob
I agree, and George has not been discarded or “thrown under the bus”. Instead, his published works have been studied repeatedly, and then justifiably reputed where they disagree with the verified historical records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
wallyb said
Hi Bob
What was in error?
I know there are a lot of problems in the 1890’s on 92’s and 94’s.
Walter
Walter,
It goes way beyond just the Models 1892 and 1894, and the 1890s.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert
How do 160,0000 guns go from antique to modern with a stroke of a pen ?
Walter
wallyb said
Hi Bert
How do 160,0000 guns go from antique to modern with a stroke of a pen ?
Walter
Walter,
The did not change status… they were never “Antique” to begin with. Just because somebody once wrote that they were does not make it “fact”. The sooner you can understand that fact, the better off you will be.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Isn’t the definition of the term “manufactured” one of the key things here in this discussion?
I have read that in the past, a firearm was defined as being manufactured when the serial number was stamped on the receiver even though the firearm may not have been assembled at that time. Of course, if this were true, then that date would have had to been recorded.
If this is the case, then a serial number stamped receiver could have been laying around for some time period before it was used to assemble a firearm.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the polishing room records indicate when a firearm was actually assembled and sold or put in a warehouse.
Of course, we’re talking about Winchesters here, but there is another whole issue about firearms that did not have serial numbers stamped on them since this was not a requirement until later years.
Just my two cents worth.
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