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I am trying to identify this old rifle. I assume it is a Winchester. I need help figure out the model, barrel length, most popular calibers of that era, etc. I assume, and could be incorrect, this photo was taken between 1875-1885. This person (great grandfather) lived from 1850-1897 and appears to be 25-35 years old.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I’m just not that familiar with the old Winchesters lever actions and would like to acquire a similar rifle. Of course the price of these rifles in high condition is such that I want to get it correct.
Thank you,
Fielding
I can’t see it well enough to positively identify it, but it could be a Model 1876.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Fielding,
The important part is the side of the receiver to tell if its a 73 or 76. My guess it looks like a 76. If you could get a real high resolution picture or scan and email to me where I can use a photoshop program to play with contrast. I might be able to tell for sure.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thank you for the info. I’ll take it out of the frame and see if I can get a better photo tonight.
Wonderful photo! Your GGF must either have been a member of a wild west show (of which there were several besides Cody’s), or specially tricked out for this photo–because such a fancy outfit was definitely not regular men’s wear in the West, even for cowboys. (Unless the cowboy happened to be someone like Teddy Roosevelt!)
Not the routine Colt or Remington in his holster, either. Looks to me like it could be a Merwin Hulbert, which many consider the best made revolver of the time.
Compare the length of the frame of the rifle with the length of the lever–looks much longer than proportions of a ’73.
clarence said
Wonderful photo! Your GGF must either have been a member of a wild west show (of which there were several besides Cody’s), or specially tricked out for this photo–because such a fancy outfit was definitely not regular men’s wear in the West, even for cowboys. (Unless the cowboy happened to be someone like Teddy Roosevelt!)Not the routine Colt or Remington in his holster, either. Looks to me like it could be a Merwin Hulbert, which many consider the best made revolver of the time.
Compare the length of the frame of the rifle with the length of the lever–looks much longer than proportions of a ’73.
I agree with all the others. It is a 76. Look at the length of the lifter. And the pistol could be a Merwin. Hopkins and Allen made pistols for Merwin and Hulbert.
This first loading for the 76 was the 45-75. Later many calibers became available. 50′ are the most expensive but 45-60’s are one of the 3 favorites.
It is a 76! Look at the overall length of the elevator and the lever, to long to be a 73.
I don’t have a clue who made the spurs!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
I don’t have a clue who made the spurs!
I don’t either, but judging by the size of the rowels, good chance he hablad espanole.
That’s not a Merwin & Hulbert. Look closely at the last photo. It’s a Colt 1878 DA with a 7 1/2″ barrel. See the sharp spur behind the hammer?
win4575 said
That’s not a Merwin & Hulbert. Look closely at the last photo. It’s a Colt 1878 DA with a 7 1/2″ barrel. See the sharp spur behind the hammer?
Just checked image of one, & you’re absolutely right; didn’t think they had that rounded end of the grip panel.
I also agree it is an 1876 and the revolver is a Colt 1878. I think I can ever see the what appears to be the Colt Pony logo on the grip and a lanyard ring common on that model although certainly a better resolution would help to be certain.
Not an 1877 model, because the holster is too large and made for a 7 1/2″ barrel.
Rick I see your point. That holster looks long enough for a 10″ barrel. Those are sure great pictures. Wish I had some of my family like that.
Thank you for the help, I do believe it is a model 1876 based on the shells in the belt and the opinions of the rifle. I attached a close up of the receiver showing the placement of some screw if they tell anything. Thank you also for the information on the pistol. I didn’t want to hijack the forum asking about a non-Winchester firearm. The man in the photo was an avid buffalo hunter and spend most of his time in the Arapaho Nation as a government surveyor. The only firearm I have of his is a #2 Remington Rolling Block. Unfortunately, my late father regretfully chose the rolling block over the Winchester in the photo at age 10 (1940) because it looked more modern and had 31 notches cut into the leather sling (now lost).
So in looking to replace the 1876 what would be the ideal buffalo cartridge? The barrel appears to be octagon when it is compared to the tubular magazine? What is the price range for a good to excellent condition clean original rifle? Is this a “beware of fakes” model rifle and any suggestions on spotting one? On GB I see several that note “missing dust cover” is that a big deal to replace? Is this a strictly blackpowder rifle or is there a place to buy some light smokless loads?
The man in the photo is Henry Lewis Turner (my great grand father). He spend 1870-1890 in eastern Colorado down thru eastern New Mexico. His surveyors job was secured thru politics and more likely to provide him with legitimate government authority and security while living and traveling in the Arapaho and later the Apache Nations. We have loads of stories about Buffalo Bill and various Native Americans and some artifacts. Some are substantiated some not. Basically, he was living the dream; the right place, the right firearms, plenty of hunting and the right period on history to do it.
I really appreciate the information.
Fielding Turner
It’s too bad that your dad chose the rolling block over the Winchester, but it is a treasure to have at least one of his guns. You are a very lucky man to have photos, a gun and history of your great grandfather. I’m going to try to answer some of your questions. It is impossible to tell, without having the serial number of the ’76, what caliber it might have been. The earliest and probably the most popular caliber was .45-75 WCF. This was in fact the second center fire cartridge to be developed by Winchester. The first being the .44 WCF (.44-40). None of the 1876 calibers were great for buffalo. Over the years, I’ve shot 9 buffalo, all with an original 1876 in various calibers. These were ranch hunts so the distances varied greatly. Most of my shots were 100 to 130 yards. The .45-60 was poor at best. The .50-95 I would rate as good. However, the .45-75 was great. On five of these hunts, I used either a deluxe octagon barreled rifle or a standard carbine, both in .45-75. The .45-75 always killed on the first well placed shot. I never used a ’76 in .40-60 WCF. I hand loaded all of my ammo with original Winchester molds and tools and used black powder only. Others may have smokeless loads, but I never use them in any of my 1876 Winchesters. The 1876 model is easy to find in all calibers except for the .50 Express. These too are available, but not easy to find and they can be expensive. A good shootable .45-75 should be quite easy to find. Just depends on how much original finish you want and how much you want to spend. I would think $5000.00 would buy you a very nice original gun, with some original finish, no missing parts and very nice wood. Dust covers for the ’76 can be found, but they can also be expensive. Do you know what happened to your grandfathers buckskins, gun belt and pistol? What caliber is the rolling block?
FLT said
The only firearm I have of his is a #2 Remington Rolling Block.
Not a #2, which would have a distinct curvature at the rear of the rcvr. Appears to be the standard #1 action, except that the round brl. resembles a scarce variant called the Black Hills model; if so, should be chambered in .40-60.
Fascinating markings–British? (Which at the time meant Canada also.)
My error–should have said .45-60.
I assumed the “2” on the trigger guard implied it was a #2 Rolling Block. I made a cerrosafe casting of the chamber once and should have just sent the whole casting to Buffalo Arms Co for identification. Instead I took measurements and I’m not sure what it is.
bore and groove= .440 x.451
case length=2.304
neck diameter= .492
shoulder=.515
base dia=.536
rem dia=.670
Maybe the 1876 wasn’t enough gun for buffalo and thus the Rolling Block. I have limited my Winchster collecting to 1930-1963 because the old guns make me nervous. I worried about fakes. I hoped $5,000 range would buy a good one. If it’s fairly common that helps, knowing and sticking with the most common caliber also is a big plus. I’m not sure what happened to the buckskins and I’d like to replace the pistol also. I guess when they took time for pictures in those days people dressed in their best.
win4575 said
It’s too bad that your dad chose the rolling block over the Winchester, but it is a treasure to have at least one of his guns. You are a very lucky man to have photos, a gun and history of your great grandfather. I’m going to try to answer some of your questions. It is impossible to tell, without having the serial number of the ’76, what caliber it might have been. The earliest and probably the most popular caliber was .45-75 WCF. This was in fact the second center fire cartridge to be developed by Winchester. The first being the .44 WCF (.44-40). None of the 1876 calibers were great for buffalo. Over the years, I’ve shot 9 buffalo, all with an original 1876 in various calibers. These were ranch hunts so the distances varied greatly. Most of my shots were 100 to 130 yards. The .45-60 was poor at best. The .50-95 I would rate as good. However, the .45-75 was great. On five of these hunts, I used either a deluxe octagon barreled rifle or a standard carbine, both in .45-75. The .45-75 always killed on the first well placed shot. I never used a ’76 in .40-60 WCF. I hand loaded all of my ammo with original Winchester molds and tools and used black powder only. Others may have smokeless loads, but I never use them in any of my 1876 Winchesters. The 1876 model is easy to find in all calibers except for the .50 Express. These too are available, but not easy to find and they can be expensive. A good shootable .45-75 should be quite easy to find. Just depends on how much original finish you want and how much you want to spend. I would think $5000.00 would buy you a very nice original gun, with some original finish, no missing parts and very nice wood. Dust covers for the ’76 can be found, but they can also be expensive. Do you know what happened to your grandfathers buckskins, gun belt and pistol? What caliber is the rolling block?
Just to add a little. I shoot most of my guns. I don’t shoot smokeless in the 45-75 I have. Shoot black powder or a black powder substitute. For collectors a octagon barrel is preferred over the round barrel. A crescent butt is preferred over a shot gun butt. I wouldn’t turn down a nice gun if it had a round barrel and a shotgun butt. Most dust covers will be repo’s and be too new looking for the gun. Originals could be found eventually. Try for a 45-75 if not the 45-60 isn’t a bad choice for a collector gun. Any 50 caliber gun is going to almost double the price.
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