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Letter states “muzzle countersunk.” Never seen this before…
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=543602065
If this were designed for trick shooting, what are the advantages of a countersunk muzzle? Originally, I was thinking it was to protect the muzzle from nicks and dings?? No doubt an odd special order option.
I am of the opinion that the countersunk muzzle was to help protect rifling at the muzzle face from damage.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Am I the only one that thinks this one is a little fishy? You would think that “rear sight as far back as possible” would put the sight much closer to the receiver. In fact , the rear sight on this one is in the standard location. Not “3/8 in. back” like he states. Look at a factory short rifle, or an ELW; the rear sights are all much, much closer to the receiver. Also, would a 22″ barrel have a short forend? I have a 22″ 1876 and it has a shorter forend. Furthermore, the front sight looks like a fresh milled dovetail. Maybe I am paranoid, but this one seems goofy to me.
I notice the front sight is screwed to the barrel though it is not noted in the museum letter. I have seen this on a lot of Winchesters, not just 86″s. I have an 86 with a notation from the records “Lyman front screwed to barrel”. Any idea how often this feature was noted in the factory records? Or, if it is not noted in the records should one assume it was done later? Burt
Burt Humphrey said
I notice the front sight is screwed to the barrel though it is not noted in the museum letter. I have seen this on a lot of Winchesters, not just 86″s. I have an 86 with a notation from the records “Lyman front screwed to barrel”. Any idea how often this feature was noted in the factory records? Or, if it is not noted in the records should one assume it was done later? Burt
I believe that is just a Set Screw to hold pressure onto the base of the sight in the dovetail. To keep it from sliding out. I believe It doesn’t actually screw or thread into the barrel itself.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
I agree that the screw does not protrude into the barrel. In the Madis book chapter on sights, George notes “a small set screw is found on some front rifle sights; many of the sights which have the set screw are marked: PAT. Nov. 4 02”. The sight on my rifle says Lyman and has PAT OCT 6 95. You cannot read the entire word Lyman because of the screw. Does the note in the Winchester Book mean Lyman made some sights with the screw hole and could customers buy them directly or were they only furnished to Winchester. As stated earlier I have seen this screw in the front sight on quite a few guns and wonder how often these sights were placed on the gun at the factory and noted in the records.
January 26, 2011
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Ed\
Am I the only one that thinks this one is a little fishy? You would think that “rear sight as far back as possible” would put the sight much closer to the receiver. In fact , the rear sight on this one is in the standard location. Not “3/8 in. back” like he states. Look at a factory short rifle, or an ELW; the rear sights are all much, much closer to the receiver. Also, would a 22″ barrel have a short forend? I have a 22″ 1876 and it has a shorter forend. Furthermore, the front sight looks like a fresh milled dovetail. Maybe I am paranoid, but this one seems goofy to me.
Although the letter is interesting, I’m wondering about this rifle as well. I think the barrel has been made up, look at the octagon to round transition. I don’t know if the ’86’s had the short fore ends on short barrels but I guess I don’t recall seeing one.
~Gary~
The barrel looks a little “sketchy” BUT I wouldn’t discount it outright. On shorter rifles, the rear sight was often moved rearward to increase the sight plane; the further the sights are apart, the more accurate the aiming. On shorter barreled 92s and 94s rifles, Winchester moved the rear sight towards the receiver ¾ of an inch.
The octagon to round transition should be at a 45 degree angle, as noted earlier, the transition on the rifle in question doesn’t quite look right, but it might just be the picture angle.
The counter bored muzzle was to protect the muzzle rifling, generally fond on target rifles, but would also make sense on rifles that may see heavy woods use.
If I were serious about the rifle, I would verify the letter and insist on an inspection.
Interesting discussion for an newbie. In a case like this if one wanted a inspection who , how would that be done?
Cheers
Kirk
Burt Humphrey said
I agree that the screw does not protrude into the barrel. In the Madis book chapter on sights, George notes “a small set screw is found on some front rifle sights; many of the sights which have the set screw are marked: PAT. Nov. 4 02”. The sight on my rifle says Lyman and has PAT OCT 6 95. You cannot read the entire word Lyman because of the screw. Does the note in the Winchester Book mean Lyman made some sights with the screw hole and could customers buy them directly or were they only furnished to Winchester. As stated earlier I have seen this screw in the front sight on quite a few guns and wonder how often these sights were placed on the gun at the factory and noted in the records.
The Lyman patent may be PAT OCT 6 ’85. Here is a link to that patent if you are interested. If you have a regular Lyman front sight with a screw through it I think that could be out of the ordinary. Any way to post a picture of it?
The Winchester PAT NOV 4 02 is for the tinned tip bead on Winchester front sights. The intent was to provide something more durable and less expensive than an ivory bead apparently. That patent date is found on carbine blades and other sights that don’t utilize a screw and is not related to the screw to the best of my knowledge.
Winchester sporting front sights with the locking screw are very commonly found on many of the lever-action rifles.
Brad
Thanks Brad – I just looked at the date on the Lyman sight with a loop and it is clearly OCT 6 95. My original curiosity and question regarded whether Winchester often noted this feature in the records when the gun left the factory. I have seen a lot of guns with the sight/screw and never previously gave it much thought. When I looked at the pictures of the 86 in this thread I noticed the sight/screw and also that it was not noted in the museum letter. As noted previously I have an 86 in which the Lyman sight screwed to the barrel is noted in the museum letter. In the last couple of days I have looked at 5 early guns with the sight/screw, all with museum letters. Not one of them has the sight/screw noted in the museum letter. I have not heard much response on this issue so I guess it does not arose curiosity in others. I did ask an old time dealer if he had ever seen a letter with the sight/screw mentioned and he replied that he could not think of any.
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