Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
I have bought guns from Leroy. In all cases he or his employees have been willing to take the gun apart,send me extra pictures, and answer any questions. In one case take the gun back for a full refund even though it was my overly optimistic attitude that caused me to buy it. I was told about the flaw but I still bought it. He buys them to sell for a profit, the American way. I still own most of the guns and the ones I’ve sold I have made a profit.
I know most people think his prices are high, so are RIA’s prices realized. You do not have to buy from either place. Many of his guns and every other gun dealers are not totally original. If a buyer doesn’t know what he’s looking at, get help. Gun sellers are no different than used car salesmen. You as a buyer can ask any questions and hold them responsible for their answers in the form of a return policy.
If your looking for a totally honest gun dealer your list is short. I consider a honest gun dealer one that will honor his words. Get the dealer to back his words. T/R
clarence said
Chuck said All large gun dealers get stuff that has to be sold. It’s how they represent this stuff.
Doesn’t have to be sold if it doesn’t get bought in the first place. And if the dealer (remember, he’s the “expert”) makes a mistake, is he entitled to pass that mistake on to his customer? Only by the law of thieves. If he makes a big mistake, he can write that off as a business deduction, which the customer can’t.
I doubt that most dealers would buy a single gun that has problems and eventually cause him more problems. When entire estates get bought or small amounts of guns are in the deal there is often stuff you really don’t want. Yes, they are entitled to pass that mistake off onto a customer. They just need to advertise it as a mistake. It is very important for the buyers to educate themselves before they start buying items they have no knowledge of. Buy books first, get someone to look at the gun before you buy etc.
Don’t buy guns that you have not picked up and looked at first or someone else has looked at for you.
About ten years ago I bought an old car. After seeing many pictures and talking to the sellers several times I flew to northern Ca. Then to Florida. Then to Ohio. The first 2 sellers were crooks. I bought the one in Ohio. As a buyer in today’s world you better do your homework.
Yes, they are entitled to pass that mistake off onto a customer. They just need to advertise it as a mistake. Chuck said
If customer is told about problem that dealer missed, HIS mistake, than the mistake has not been “passed on,” it’s been rectified. That’s what Austinsguns is doing.
November 7, 2015
Offline
One thing to consider is that Leroy Merz, Cheryl Goyda, Russ Withem, and Kevin Hogan et al must have a working knowledge of virtually every collectible firearm available today. We have the luxury of focusing on Winchesters, or maybe even just the Winchesters we are interested in. They may also sell other collectibles and must stay current with them as well. Quite honestly there is no way a big auction house/dealer can know as much as many of you do about the Winchesters we love and study at every opportunity. I think this is why these folks can be found at collector shows when their schedules permit and they expend significant resources to spend time with collectors like you to expand their knowledge base. Yes, some of their offerings have issues. A few guns in my collection have issues and I’ve certainly made a few mistakes along the way. These auction houses and online dealers support our hobby. Some have obviously done things we disagree with, I won’t paint them all with the same brush.
Past my bedtime, stepping off my soapbox. Y’all have a great weekend!
Mike
Online
I agree with Mike – we can’t paint everyone with the same brush. However, I have seen a large number examples over the years where dealers (and other sellers) have known about an alteration with a gun, and deliberately stayed silent about it. They count on a lack of knowledge on the buyer’s part. And lack of knowledge among buyers is as plentiful as the air we breathe.
An example I can think of is a dealer I knew. He has been deceased many years but had a shop open for a half-century or so and also had a catalog business. For the most part, he didn’t have high end stuff. Anyway, there was one rifle (not a Winchester) that he shipped out several times and it was returned several times. The rifle had the wrong sight on it and that was the reason for multiple returns. A fellow collector asked why he kept shipping the rifle out with the wrong sight (and not telling the buyer). His response: “eventually, someone is going to buy it who doesn’t know it has the wrong sight.” Now you might think a dealer who operates that way won’t stay in business long. You’d be right if you consider half a century not very long. But, TR mentioned the importance of a dealer honoring his merchandize. And this dealer met that criteria. If you sent something back to him, you could count on getting your money returned. Promptly and no restocking fee. This dealer, like many dealers (and other sellers), buy items they can determine are not right, but buy them because they know a large percentage of buyer’s won’t know any better. Over the years, I have seen this happen more often with lower-end stuff than higher-end stuff, but based on the obvious flaws of many items the big auction houses (and some of the big dealers) are selling, I see a shift I’m not happy to see.
steve004 said However, I have seen a large number examples over the years where dealers (and other sellers) have known about an alteration with a gun, and deliberately stayed silent about it. They count on a lack of knowledge on the buyer’s part. And lack of knowledge among buyers is as plentiful as the air we breathe.
Big diff between someone operating a business who can write off his “mistakes” as a tax deduction, as he would a gun stolen, lost in a fire, etc., & a collector who can’t.
That dealer who kept listing & relisting until the right ignoramus came along sounds exactly like Jim Goergen, though his specialty was single-shots. He never even complained when the irate customer (like me) called to say “this CAN’T” be the same gun you described to me!,” just said “so sorry.” One, I remember, I only half un-wrapped before shoving it back in the box in disbelief that he could have lied so brazenly about it. (In the ancient days of Gun List & Shotgun News.) Customer’s money was “cheerfully refunded,” less, of course, shipping charges.
I see there is about 4 hours to go – it’s sitting a little over $900. I suppose it might make an interesting (mainly high-condition) shooter for someone. However, one wonders how the chamber has been modified? Apparently it went from a .32 Special to a .32-40… and I just don’t see how that would work?
Well, it sold for a couple dollars short of two grand. One wonders about the future of this carbine. It it was sold and traded about as an all-original piece among high dollar dealers and collectors, seems to me that could repeat itself. Maybe that’s what some of the bidders had in mind?
Steve,
You should have bought it and put a 32WS barrel on it, knowing your affinity for the 32WS. Or could have done everyone a favor by buying it and taking a chop saw to it to get it out of circulation
As the gun sits, its worth about what the collection of its parts will bear on the market.
All kidding aside, and regardless of who ended up with it, if your on the buying end and fixing to drop a couple grand on a gun, and you dont do your due diligence and research, then too bad, lessons learned (hopefully). We’ve all been taken at one time or another, it comes with the territory. Some still get fleeced even as seasoned collectors.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
Steve,You should have bought it and put a 32WS barrel on it, knowing your affinity for the 32WS. Or could have done everyone a favor by buying it and taking a chop saw to it to get it out of circulation
All kidding aside, and regardless of who ended up with it, if your on the buying end and fixing to drop a couple grand on a gun, and you dont do your due diligence and research, then too bad, lessons learned (hopefully). We’ve all been taken at one time or another, it comes with the territory. Some still get fleeced even as seasoned collectors.
Chris
Chris – it would have made a nice looking .32 Special You are correct, we all get fleeced sometimes. Sometimes learning can be expensive. But the lesson learned is never forgotten.
1892takedown said Some still get fleeced even as seasoned collectors.
Chris
No one fleeced here, when seller plainly identified fakery.
clarence said
1892takedown said Some still get fleeced even as seasoned collectors.
Chris
No one fleeced here, when seller plainly identified fakery.
Kudos to those who do, thats what sets them apart from the many others who dont.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Whom ever purchased this gun I suspect is laughing all the way to the bank. It’s travelled around fooling folks for quite some time. It will be on the market again soon enough. It is never going away.
oldcrankyyankee said
Whom ever purchased this gun I suspect is laughing all the way to the bank. It’s travelled around fooling folks for quite some time. It will be on the market again soon enough. It is never going away.
And it will be interesting to see if all future sellers of this rifle are above-board about this carbine. I think Tom is suspecting not, and I agree with that.
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
Whom ever purchased this gun I suspect is laughing all the way to the bank. It’s travelled around fooling folks for quite some time. It will be on the market again soon enough. It is never going away.
And it will be interesting to see if all future sellers of this rifle are above-board about this carbine. I think Tom is suspecting not, and I agree with that.
Exactly what I am thinking. I am hoping that Burt has dropped an asterisk next the serial number in his encyclopedia’s.
I think it is interesting that, even with full disclosure, it is still sold for about $2,000.
John D. said
I think it is interesting that, even with full disclosure, it is still sold for about $2,000.
My guess is that’s because the next buyer won’t necessarily have that full disclosure, causing him to drastically overpay, especially if not an experienced Winchester collector.
mrcvs said
My guess is that’s because the next buyer won’t necessarily have that full disclosure, causing him to drastically overpay, especially if not an experienced Winchester collector.
Maybe Leroy bought it back?
clarence said
mrcvs said
My guess is that’s because the next buyer won’t necessarily have that full disclosure, causing him to drastically overpay, especially if not an experienced Winchester collector.
Maybe Leroy bought it back?
Or one of the other famous collector/ dealers, I shant mention anyone by name. But I also agree some poor sap will be talked out of alot of coin on it. As so often happens. But welcome to the world of collecting, anything.
November 7, 2015
Offline
John D. said
I think it is interesting that, even with full disclosure, it is still sold for about $2,000.
I think some of us need to wake up and smell the coffee. (No, John, not picking on you. You are spot on.) There ARE serious collectors these days that value appearance over originality. All collectors can’t be purists who insist on original, unmolested examples. Only a few lucky collectors and museums can afford this luxury. Like many of you, I have been blessed to score some sweet examples. The collector who values “improved” is no less a collector than the purist, he just enjoys the guns that are readily available and attractive to him. He supports the gunsmiths who do things the “old school” way. He also keeps our hobby alive and we should welcome him because he loves the same guns we do. He is our only hope for keeping this hobby alive because the number of original and unmolested examples is getting smaller every day, just like the number of purist collectors.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my 80-90% guns and know they are my best investment. I also enjoy displaying guns that many traditional collectors would never give a second look. They look good to me and my guests. I also want to shoot every classic Winchester I buy because I feel like I’m shaking hands with history when I do.
We all have to start somewhere. Lower grade guns gave many of us a chance to learn about classic Winchesters, some of us will keep them around for our heirs (or creditors) to deal with. I don’t care, in the years I have left I’m going to have fun and that includes encouraging new collectors to enjoy the guns we love.
Stepping off my soapbox…..before I fall off!
Mike
1 Guest(s)
