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I thought the caliber stamp didn't look right...
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July 18, 2023 - 4:31 am
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I looked through all the photos before reading the description and it just didn’t look right–especially the caliber marking.  A good test in the buyer beware category for sure.  Kudos to the honesty of the seller.  An excellent example of the great lengths the crooks will go to defraud you of your money.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/999103862

Don

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July 18, 2023 - 3:41 pm
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deerhunter said   Kudos to the honesty of the seller.  An excellent example of the great lengths the crooks will go to defraud you of your money.

  

Also, a testament to the “honesty” of renowned Winchester expert Merz.  How could someone in this business 50+ yrs have been fooled by such a suspicious caliber marking?   But isn’t it amazing that the swindler responsible for this forgery could be SO greedy as to ruin a near-mint .32 WS in order to create a fake .32-40? 

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July 18, 2023 - 3:57 pm
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clarence said

deerhunter said   Kudos to the honesty of the seller.  An excellent example of the great lengths the crooks will go to defraud you of your money.

  

But isn’t it amazing that the swindler responsible for this forgery could be SO greedy as to ruin a near-mint .32 WS in order to create a fake .32-40? 

  

I was thinking the exact same thing.  What a shame.

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July 18, 2023 - 11:35 pm
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Curious why it took so long for the  experts to see the shallow caliber stamping and the little tiny tiny gash at the top of the 40 stamp. Clearly done by  under cut in the filler weld. Never would have passed an ASME weld inspection. I would have bought it as is in 32 spcl. 

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July 18, 2023 - 11:36 pm
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At least current seller is being up front with it.

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July 19, 2023 - 12:54 am
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oldcrankyyankee said
At least current seller is being up front with it.

  

Better than that, calling out the dealer who sold it as original.  (Like to hear what buyer thought about finding his “rare” gun was worth half or less what he paid for it!)   However, I can’t imagine how the welding & polishing could have been done without requiring rebluing entire brl., not just that small area.

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July 19, 2023 - 2:38 am
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Lots of folks, probably including me, would have missed that. Looks like very good work but wasn’t aware the 32-40 was worth the trouble. Nice looking carbine.

 

Mike

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July 19, 2023 - 2:49 am
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Thanks to Austin for exposing this to those buyers that wouldn’t have known the difference, which is likely the majority of the folks perusing GB. The value of the positive comments regarding his integrity will far outweigh the premium he could have received by selling it as an original 32-40 in high condition. Feels like a story with a good ending. 

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July 19, 2023 - 3:48 am
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TXGunNut said
Lots of folks, probably including me, would have missed that. Looks like very good work but wasn’t aware the 32-40 was worth the trouble.  

Well, you have to look closely, but it clearly looks “different” from other markings–more lightly stamped & something odd about numerals.  But “lots of folks” haven’t examined the ten thousand guns that have passed through the hands of Merz.

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July 19, 2023 - 1:27 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

Lots of folks, probably including me, would have missed that. Looks like very good work but wasn’t aware the 32-40 was worth the trouble.  

Well, you have to look closely, but it clearly looks “different” from other markings–more lightly stamped & something odd about numerals.  But “lots of folks” haven’t examined the ten thousand guns that have passed through the hands of Merz.

  

…..yet there he is – his picture posted all over “our” magazine. Very disheartening.

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July 19, 2023 - 4:44 pm
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foxfire said

clarence said

TXGunNut said

Lots of folks, probably including me, would have missed that. Looks like very good work but wasn’t aware the 32-40 was worth the trouble.  

Well, you have to look closely, but it clearly looks “different” from other markings–more lightly stamped & something odd about numerals.  But “lots of folks” haven’t examined the ten thousand guns that have passed through the hands of Merz.

  

…..yet there he is – his picture posted all over “our” magazine. Very disheartening.

  

Yes, I understand but he is not the only faker that is pictured in our magazine. 

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July 19, 2023 - 6:19 pm
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Chuck said Yes, I understand but he is not the only faker that is pictured in our magazine. 

It’s a large community, for sure!  However, I doubt Merz himself had anything to do with the fakery, too busy buying & selling.  But that’s no excuse for failing to look hard with a mag glass at the marking that distinguishes a common gun from a rare one.

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July 19, 2023 - 8:30 pm
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 If a gun dealer only sold original gun he would have few to sell. Almost everyone replaces broken or worn parts and I for one would not call that making a fake gun, it’s a repair. If you build a clone gun and change the serial number to match a Cody letter, that’s a fake gun. If you change features on a gun and not the serial number, that”s a up graded gun, if it’s serial number can be checked, it’s a gun that doesn’t letter. If a gun seller knowingly misrepresents the gun he is selling then he is not honest, but that does not necessarily make his gun a fake. Fake guns are guns with messed with serial numbers.

 Most of the fake guns out there are not being sold by the faker, but by 2nd, 3rd hand owners in a less than honest manor. Today with good pictures, records, and access to experts fake guns are easily outed. T/R 

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July 19, 2023 - 9:14 pm
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TR said
 If a gun dealer only sold original gun he would have few to sell. Almost everyone replaces broken or worn parts and I for one would not call that making a fake gun, it’s a repair. If you build a clone gun and change the serial number to match a Cody letter, that’s a fake gun. If you change features on a gun and not the serial number, that”s a up graded gun, if it’s serial number can be checked, it’s a gun that doesn’t letter. If a gun seller knowingly misrepresents the gun he is selling then he is not honest, but that does not necessarily make his gun a fake. Fake guns are guns with messed with serial numbers.

 Most of the fake guns out there are not being sold by the faker, but by 2nd, 3rd hand owners in a less than honest manor. Today with good pictures, records, and access to experts fake guns are easily outed. T/R 

  

I see what you are saying, but I wouldn’t place this .32-40 SRC in the upgraded category.  And of course, it’s not a repair.  

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July 19, 2023 - 10:12 pm
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If you change features on a gun and not the serial number, that”s a up graded gun, if it’s serial number can be checked, it’s a gun that doesn’t letter.TR said

  

One common “upgrade” is re-stocking with fancy wood; I knew a stocker who did a lot of it.  This puts the gun, I think, in an “in-between” cond–not exactly fake but certainly not original.  But how about adding engraving to a gun that can’t be lettered?  When some restorer like Turnbull starts with a rcvr & builds a gun around it with new parts to conform to factory record, that gun has gone way beyond “upgrading,” & should be considered a fake, I think.

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July 19, 2023 - 10:54 pm
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clarence said

If you change features on a gun and not the serial number, that”s a up graded gun, if it’s serial number can be checked, it’s a gun that doesn’t letter.TR said

  

One common “upgrade” is re-stocking with fancy wood; I knew a stocker who did a lot of it.  This puts the gun, I think, in an “in-between” cond–not exactly fake but certainly not original.  But how about adding engraving to a gun that can’t be lettered?  When some restorer like Turnbull starts with a rcvr & builds a gun around it with new parts to conform to factory record, that gun has gone way beyond “upgrading,” & should be considered a fake, I think.

  

There’s quite a variety of variants on this theme that could be considered.  With regard to this SRC, I see it as a very deliberate effort to deceive.  Yes, you can restock and, “upgrade” a rifle with fancy wood.  But you don’t, “upgrade” a .32 Special to a .32/40 by altering the barrel markings, chamber etc.  It was a fraudulent intent to increase the value of the carbine.  I see it differently than if the barrel had simply been swapped.  I realize others may not see it as different – which is what makes these discussions interesting and thought-provoking.

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July 20, 2023 - 12:20 am
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steve004 said I see it differently than if the barrel had simply been swapped.  I realize others may not see it as different – which is what makes these discussions interesting and thought-provoking.
  

Barrels do wear out, usually from neglect, but maybe from excessive shooting, too, as sometimes happened to .220 Swifts.  I don’t regard re-barreling a gun with a factory brl, same caliber, length & wt, etc., as any serious detraction at all.  Would you rather have the gun with a ruined original brl?  Not me.  If the brl specs have been changed, heavier, caliber changed, for ex., with the work done in the factory, that fact adds to the gun’s history, & makes it more, not less, desirable to me. Evidence that some previous owner gave thought to how to improve the gun for his needs.

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July 20, 2023 - 5:53 pm
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TR said
 If a gun dealer only sold original gun he would have few to sell. Almost everyone replaces broken or worn parts and I for one would not call that making a fake gun, it’s a repair. If you build a clone gun and change the serial number to match a Cody letter, that’s a fake gun. If you change features on a gun and not the serial number, that”s a up graded gun, if it’s serial number can be checked, it’s a gun that doesn’t letter. If a gun seller knowingly misrepresents the gun he is selling then he is not honest, but that does not necessarily make his gun a fake. Fake guns are guns with messed with serial numbers.

 Most of the fake guns out there are not being sold by the faker, but by 2nd, 3rd hand owners in a less than honest manor. Today with good pictures, records, and access to experts fake guns are easily outed. T/R 

  

I totally agree.  All large gun dealers get stuff that has to be sold.  It’s how they represent this stuff.

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July 20, 2023 - 6:09 pm
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Chuck said All large gun dealers get stuff that has to be sold.  It’s how they represent this stuff.
  

Doesn’t have to be sold if it doesn’t get bought in the first place.  And if the dealer (remember, he’s the “expert”) makes a mistake, is he entitled to pass that mistake on to his customer?  Only by the law of thieves.  If he makes a big mistake, he can write that off as a business deduction, which the customer can’t.

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July 20, 2023 - 6:20 pm
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clarence said

steve004 said I see it differently than if the barrel had simply been swapped.  I realize others may not see it as different – which is what makes these discussions interesting and thought-provoking.

  

Barrels do wear out, usually from neglect, but maybe from excessive shooting, too, as sometimes happened to .220 Swifts.  I don’t regard re-barreling a gun with a factory brl, same caliber, length & wt, etc., as any serious detraction at all.  Would you rather have the gun with a ruined original brl?  Not me.  If the brl specs have been changed, heavier, caliber changed, for ex., with the work done in the factory, that fact adds to the gun’s history, & makes it more, not less, desirable to me. Evidence that some previous owner gave thought to how to improve the gun for his needs.

  

In this case, a previous owner gave thought on how to improve his profit line through strategic and deceptive alterations.

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