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… sure has a lot of special features. Features I really like. It helps that they letter too. I hear if the work can be documented as actually performed by Turnbull, that helps also. So, how does this piece strike others here? Also, thoughts on how much the .38-56 chambering works against it?
Beautiful model 1886, and very nice restoration, but I wouldn’t spend that kind of money on a restored gun. My opinion.
Al
steve004 said
Also, thoughts on how much the .38-56 chambering works against it?
With all those factory “extras,” who cares! The front sight, however, is incorrect according to the letter, which said it should be a Lyman; this one is a Beach, but that’s easily corrected. (Though I prefer the Beach!) The correct Lyman tang makes up for that.
As for the restoration, which is undeniably beautiful, I only hope the gun was in seriously bad shape, not merely a nice, clean gun showing only honest wear, not abuse, before this work was done…a gun you might actually shoot! Now, it’s fit only for a display case.
I don’t like the barrel markings. As I don’t believe they achieved what the factory barrel markings should look like on a matted barrel gun.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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If its a typical full restoration the barrel, tube and wood are new.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Very nice reconditioned 1886, enjoyed seeing it, however for that kind of $$ I can purchase a nice all original 86, even if not near as well equipped. That would be my preference.
38-56 caliber, even with it’s high production, doesn’t bother me at all on a 1886. The correctness and condition of the piece is more important to me.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
1873man said
If its a typical full restoration the barrel, tube and wood are new.Bob
Depending on who did the work the cost could have been about half of what he is asking.
Chuck said
Depending on who did the work the cost could have been about half of what he is asking.
Like restoring an antique car, unless it’s exceedingly rare, it’s almost impossible to get back what you put into it.
clarence said
Like restoring an antique car, unless it’s exceedingly rare, it’s almost impossible to get back what you put into it.
The cost to restore vs ultimate value is usually a concern with a hobbyist or individual collector/restorer. When I restored Jaguar’s, I had customers who would spend $60,000 to restore a Jaguar Mark 2 Saloon, and the showroom condition car was only worth $30-40K. It’s because this was their “dream car”, and money was not important.
As someone who did this for a living, I’d buy and spend $60K for restoration on an XKE and it would be worth $100-140K.
Difference is, one is for profit and knows the market. The other is the passionate collector who has dreamed of that perfect car his/her whole life, and money is not important. It is also this passionate collector who will over pay for that dream car, outside of sinking it in their own restoration.
However, there are few people that want a “patina” covered XKE in their collection. Most want showroom restored, and pay a premium for this effort.
I see the same with rifles. Some only want “original” and others want showroom restored. There is a market for both.
Guns or cars I prefer mine original. The car in my avatar is mostly original. The big problem was it is supposed to be black and the 3rd owner painted it red. I like the red better and don’t want to spend the many thousands to have it painted. Fully restored, either lose a lot of patina and a lot of times they get over restored. But to each his own.
Some of my rambling thoughts –
We know there is an interest for restored rifles like this but not so much among the guys that hang around here. I had forgotten that full restorations like this one usually means everything is manufactured new, with the exception of the receiver. Maybe the buttplate is original. I would happily pursue this gun if it 0% finish (I would prefer a bit more) but in its current state, there are original rifles out there that are of much greater appeal.
I suppose the factory letter is everything on this one. But, the letter authenticates what? It authenticates what used to be original on the rifle. Emphasis on used to.
Recall I had mentioned the .38-56 was not the most desirable. So, if you have a new barrel made up, why not chamber it in .45-70? Well, it wouldn’t be, “right” then. But… if the rifle now has a newly manufactured barrel, how is it, “right”? It, “letters” now, except it’s faked. Oh, excuse me, “restored.” On that topic, how is a buyer to know – how well are they informed – that the parts they are looking at on the rifle are not original? I believe there are some ethical considerations here.
I am quite curious about the condition of the rifle before it was (what it is now). In fact, what became of the original barrel?
I’m not totally discounting the rifle. It is a stunning showpiece. It would look great in a display case. For me, were it all original parts and it was merely a matter or refinishing, that would be better. I have seen other Turnbull rifles where everything is of new manufacture except the receiver. They’re not for me.
I’ve enjoyed the comments thus far. Hoping for me.
The only unethical part would be if the seller and future sellers don’t state that it has been restored. Fake, I don’t think so. If you changed something like making it a 45-70 that would be fake. There are many 86’s out there that started off with one of the lesser sought after calibers that are now 45-70’s. I always pay a lot of attention to the area of the barrel where the caliber marking is. Color differences and dips.
Chuck said
The only unethical part would be if the seller and future sellers don’t state that it has been restored. Fake, I don’t think so. If you changed something like making it a 45-70 that would be fake. There are many 86’s out there that started off with one of the lesser sought after calibers that are now 45-70’s. I always pay a lot of attention to the area of the barrel where the caliber marking is. Color differences and dips.
If a seller represents the rifle as, “restored” is he covered? Let’s say I am the buyer and I think, “restored” means the finish is not original. If I later find out the barrel is of modern manufacture (and I thought it was the original barrel), I might not only feel very disappointed, but deceived as well.
I had an amusing (to me at least) thought. Let’s say the buyer has a bit of experience and looks at the barrel stampings and thinks they are not quite right. He asks the seller, “have these markings been restamped?” The seller could answer honestly, “no” as they’ve only been stamped one time (on a remanufactured barrel). Again, the seller is representing the rifle as, “restored” (and each person is allowed to apply their own definition of restored). Back to the rifle under discussion, “restored” is the only clue given. No difference between just the finish being upgraded (which was my original assumption – shame on me) to the only original part present consisting of the receiver?
Chuck said
The only unethical part would be if the seller and future sellers don’t state that it has been restored. Fake, I don’t think so. If you changed something like making it a 45-70 that would be fake. There are many 86’s out there that started off with one of the lesser sought after calibers that are now 45-70’s. I always pay a lot of attention to the area of the barrel where the caliber marking is. Color differences and dips.
I’ve always found the whole argument that something that has been restored is not a “fake” is somewhat of a quagmire. I heard a story that there was someone a few years ago that won a nice NRA Firearm Medal for his original Model 86. It wasn’t until after the medal was awarded, someone thought to check with Turnbull to see if it was a gun they restored. Low and behold they had restored it. The owner of the 86 claimed when he bought the rifle it was sold to him as an original condition gun. The medal had to be returned. So who in that scenario is in the wrong. The previous seller is the faker?
I also don’t know how much facts are in that story I heard, but it seems plausible.
Twenty or Thirty years or more from now when all these old time collectors pass away and their kids that had no interest in the dad’s hobby and don’t know OR don’t care a thing about old guns and have to sell dads guns. Do you think someone will be able to tell the gun was restored? And what responsibility does the heirs of the family truly have for knowing whether or not the gun was restored?
Just a few thoughts on the matter.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
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JustinG said
However, there are few people that want a “patina” covered XKE in their collection.
I know at least three: myself & the American Pickers duo, who are always raving about finding a car or MC with original paint needing no cosmetic work beyond maybe minor touch-ups; many times they have specifically said they prefer these to show-room new restorations. Their desire & mine is to take them out & USE them, not trailer them to car shows.
steve004 said
Maybe the buttplate is original.
I’m certain it is, & I admire Turnbull’s restraint in not having it re-nicked, as it would have been originally.
Replacing the brl troubles me more than anything else; the brl & rcvr are the nucleus of the gun, so if those remain together, it’s much easier for me to overlook other replacements, such as the wood. I don’t know why brl replacement should “always” be necessary, as careful draw-filing can un-do a lot of damage, but in this case, if the matting had been badly beat-up, there wouldn’t be much that could be done.
Regarding the originality of the barrel, the seller states “the bore has strong rifling but has some frosting.” That tells me that the barrel is not newly manufactured. It’s original at least on the inside but not the outside in my opinion.. Original to the gun? Maybe or maybe not…
Don
I have no problem with restored if you don’t change the serial number. Most professionally restored guns to mint condition have the serial number freshly applied, it can be the same as the original or it can be a clone of the letter. If you buy one of the later you may someday see another gun with the same serial number as yours. Restored guns with fresh serial numbers need before pictures and records of the restoration to prove they are not a clone. T/R
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