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April 29, 2023 - 11:04 am
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This is one for the books, I would love to here more about this gun. Looks like it has a very storied history.https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/152951293/remarkable-winchester-1873-1-of-1000-upgrade-lever/?q=&cpage=2&ref=catalog

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April 29, 2023 - 12:18 pm
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Tom–Will get a SN letter at the show. even though we know it has an altered SN  Bill

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April 29, 2023 - 6:35 pm
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Can’t wait to see that letter. I bet it says one of one thousand. I really want to know to whole story behind it. One of the ultimate forgeries!

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April 29, 2023 - 8:28 pm
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 RIA outed one 10-15 years ago. It did not have the horns on the 8’s in the serial number. That information was second hand. T/R

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April 29, 2023 - 11:49 pm
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TR said
 RIA outed one 10-15 years ago. It did not have the horns on the 8’s in the serial number. That information was second hand. T/R

  

TR are you referring to the Original Rifle not having horns on the 8’s, because the copy does? I find it interesting they didn’t post a picture of the serial number this time. I also find it interesting it now has two posters with it at the new auction.

oldcrankyyankee said
Can’t wait to see that letter. I bet it says one of one thousand. I really want to know to whole story behind it. One of the ultimate forgeries!

  

The letter is only in regards to what is held in the records for the serial number. The forger used a legit number when he altered the serial number so that the letter would match the forged gun, which is not surprise. 

Here is the letter that was posted from the 2011 auction. codyletter1.jpgImage Enlarger

The forgery was included in Wilson’s book, and with all the things that came out about Wilson in later years. I am not surprised. This is not the only rifle in Wilson’s book that is not legit.

I actually think the stocks could be possibly been original. A nice conditioned early 1st model could have merely had its barrel and lower tang altered to make the gun in question.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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April 30, 2023 - 12:26 am
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All this is quite interesting but I keep going back to the expected sale price of $20-30K. I had an enlightening conversation with folks from a big auction house recently and this falls neatly into what they told me. I still have trouble thinking someone will pay big $$$$ for a FAKE! Times, they are a-changing indeed.

 

 

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April 30, 2023 - 1:19 am
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TXGunNut said
All this is quite interesting but I keep going back to the expected sale price of $20-30K. I had an enlightening conversation with folks from a big auction house recently and this falls neatly into what they told me. I still have trouble thinking someone will pay big $$$$ for a FAKE! Times, they are a-changing indeed.

 

 

Mike

  

I agree.  Completely.  But most of us aren’t changing with them!

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April 30, 2023 - 1:25 am
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Date in Feb 20, 1878, oct,set trigger,checkered,CH, 1 of 1000..Shipped Feb 20 1878–Bill

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April 30, 2023 - 2:21 am
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steve004 said

TXGunNut said

All this is quite interesting but I keep going back to the expected sale price of $20-30K. I had an enlightening conversation with folks from a big auction house recently and this falls neatly into what they told me. I still have trouble thinking someone will pay big $$$$ for a FAKE! Times, they are a-changing indeed.

 

 

Mike

  

I agree.  Completely.  But most of us aren’t changing with them!

  

What’s hard to accept is that the most visible part of the market is not being driven by those who think as many of us apparently do. I’m trying to accept that and adapt but I’m usually not a player in that segment of the market. It’s good entertainment but I haven’t figured out how it applies to the Winchesters I love.

 

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April 30, 2023 - 2:30 am
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Maverick said

TR said

 RIA outed one 10-15 years ago. It did not have the horns on the 8’s in the serial number. That information was second hand. T/R

  

TR are you referring to the Original Rifle not having horns on the 8’s, because the copy does? I find it interesting they didn’t post a picture of the serial number this time. I also find it interesting it now has two posters with it at the new auction.

  

  

 The gun that I heard about did not have horns on the 8’s but it should have. T/R

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April 30, 2023 - 3:19 am
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  When they restore a 1 of 1000 they replace the barrel, the original barrel is sold. Lets say a real 1 of 1000 barrel is installed on a donor gun, you at least have the most important part. You can send lead down a very rare and famous barrel. The gun has value. 

 In this case maybe no part of the gun is original and you add the fact that it is very visible, value is capped at cost to build.

 What’s really new about this one is Poulin uses the term upgrade. Interesting choice of words. T/R

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April 30, 2023 - 3:39 am
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TR said
  When they restore a 1 of 1000 they replace the barrel, the original barrel is sold. Lets say a real 1 of 1000 barrel is installed on a donor gun, you at least have the most important part. You can send lead down a very rare and famous barrel. The gun has value. 

 In this case maybe no part of the gun is original and you add the fact that it is very visible, value is capped at cost to build.

 What’s really new about this one is Poulin uses the term upgrade. Interesting choice of words. T/R

  

What’s amusing about the practice of selling off the original 1 of 1000 barrel is that IMHO the barrel is what made this rifle 1 of 1000. But I suppose someone who pays $20,000 or $200,000 for a rifle will probably never bother to find out how well it actually shoots.

 

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April 30, 2023 - 11:44 am
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Yes, $20,000 to $30,000 seems ludicrous for this rifle.  To me, it should have much less value do to alterations and faked components.

R Larry Wilson was a fraud.  I don’t know what to really expect when it comes to what he wrote.  He brokered many deals in which he had a pecuniary interest.  An outright conflict of interest.  But if you have R Larry Wilson broker the deal on your firearm, it must be good, right?  Especially when he features it in his book.

At least one of the Paterson revolvers featured in his book is an obvious fake.

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April 30, 2023 - 1:01 pm
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TR said
  When they restore a 1 of 1000 they replace the barrel, the original barrel is sold. Lets say a real 1 of 1000 barrel is installed on a donor gun, you at least have the most important part. You can send lead down a very rare and famous barrel. The gun has value. 

 In this case maybe no part of the gun is original and you add the fact that it is very visible, value is capped at cost to build.

 What’s really new about this one is Poulin uses the term upgrade. Interesting choice of words. T/R

  

This has always boggled my mind.  I’ve seen many, “restored” Winchesters where the barrel is special order and the most desirable and appealing aspect of the rifle.  As you state, these expensive restorations often mean newly fabricated barrel and wood.  I just couldn’t feel anything close to good about that.  In the case of a 1 of 1000, to have one in original condition – no matter how little finish – would be a wonderful thing to own.  To swap the wood and barrel out completely adulterates it.  

But, in this new world of ours, it appears the fact that when such an accumulation of mainly new parts, “letters,” all is forgiven. ConfusedYell

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April 30, 2023 - 6:10 pm
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 I once bought a real 1 of 1000 73 barrel  that was well used for $5,000. Put it on a 2nd model brown gun that matched in condition but lettered a standard rifle. It shot great and I really enjoyed shooting it. The bore was poor but it shot very straight.  After several years I sold it for what I had in the barrel and the gun, easy sale. Buyer was told the whole story and the gun did not letter. I hope he is having as much fun as I did.

 The question I always asked myself, which gun is the 1 of 1000, the one with the original barrel or the one with the serial number on the lower tang? T/R

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April 30, 2023 - 7:47 pm
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I looked up R.L. Wilson this morning, as I was unaware of the controversy with him, and I find it strange that auction houses and sellers and collectors alike still use his books for reference. 

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April 30, 2023 - 8:17 pm
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oldcrankyyankee said
I looked up R.L. Wilson this morning, as I was unaware of the controversy with him, and I find it strange that auction houses and sellers and collectors alike still use his books for reference.   

I felt that way for awhile.  Then as I became much more knowledgeable, I realized they serve some purpose.  For example, the Paterson book is valuable enough to use the original and correct ones to compare to one in hand and determine if original or not.  I’ve done just that on a few occasions.  Not to pour salt in the wound, but a member this forum discovered detrimentally with regards to his Paterson that it was problematic, after my assessment.  The trick is to not use a fake that R L Wilson claimed to be original in his book in your assessment.  Which means you must have rudimentary knowledge to smoke out the fakes in Wilson’s book.

The way you got your firearm in Wilson’s books was to actually have an original or spend enough on a fake that R L Wilson brokered, all the while he telling how great your purchase is!

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April 30, 2023 - 10:20 pm
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TR said
 The question I always asked myself, which gun is the 1 of 1000, the one with the original barrel or the one with the serial number on the lower tang? 

I read a hint of sarcasm here, but I think you well know that they’re now both parts guns. Unless in the rare instance you can prove the barrel or tang was replaced by the Winchester Factory. Which has occurred in both cases seemingly in a legit manner.

TR said  The gun that I heard about did not have horns on the 8’s but it should have. 

I think your confusing this gun with another, as the copy does have the horns on the 8s. Like I said earlier I find it interesting that no photo of the serial number was posted on the new auction. This Poulin auction and the 2011 RIA auction are of the same gun. I wonder had RIA not been shooting a TV pilot that featured this gun, if they would have actually outed it or not. In my opinion I don’t recall them outing other such guns to only then auction them later.

sertang.jpgImage EnlargerThis is the copy lower tang. To see the legit 1of1000 look in Dr. Lewis’ book.

 

Also interesting is that the Poulin auction estimate has not kept up with inflation as it is the same from over 10 years ago as the RIA auction.

Lot 1: Winchester 1873 Rifle 44 WCF

Deluxe First Model 1873 Outstanding Documented Copy of the Iconic Winchester 1 of 1000

Auction Date: July 16, 2011

Estimated Price: $20,000 – $30,000
Price Realized: $40,250.00
 

mrcvs said
Yes, $20,000 to $30,000 seems ludicrous for this rifle.  To me, it should have much less value do to alterations and faked components.

 If it sold for $40,250.00 in 2011 at RIA, one would think they would want a return on their investment.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

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May 1, 2023 - 12:34 am
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Maverick said

TR said

 The question I always asked myself, which gun is the 1 of 1000, the one with the original barrel or the one with the serial number on the lower tang? 

I read a hint of sarcasm here, but I think you well know that they’re now both parts guns. Unless in the rare instance you can prove the barrel or tang was replaced by the Winchester Factory. Which has occurred in both cases seemingly in a legit manner.

TR said  The gun that I heard about did not have horns on the 8’s but it should have. 

I think your confusing this gun with another, as the copy does have the horns on the 8s. Like I said earlier I find it interesting that no photo of the serial number was posted on the new auction. This Poulin auction and the 2011 RIA auction are of the same gun. I wonder had RIA not been shooting a TV pilot that featured this gun, if they would have actually outed it or not. In my opinion I don’t recall them outing other such guns to only then auction them later.

sertang.jpgImage EnlargerThis is the copy lower tang. To see the legit 1of1000 look in Dr. Lewis’ book.

 

Also interesting is that the Poulin auction estimate has not kept up with inflation as it is the same from over 10 years ago as the RIA auction.

Lot 1: Winchester 1873 Rifle 44 WCF

Deluxe First Model 1873 Outstanding Documented Copy of the Iconic Winchester 1 of 1000

Auction Date: July 16, 2011

Estimated Price: $20,000 – $30,000
Price Realized: $40,250.00
 

mrcvs said

Yes, $20,000 to $30,000 seems ludicrous for this rifle.  To me, it should have much less value do to alterations and faked components.

 If it sold for $40,250.00 in 2011 at RIA, one would think they would want a return on their investment.

Sincerely,

Maverick 

  

$40,250 then???  Like already mentioned, I regard it as a “parts gun”.

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May 1, 2023 - 3:01 am
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 I think I understand the upgraded 1 of 1000 idea and it may appeal to someone that wants a clone. But I don’t understand the 1 of 1000 RIA has for sale lot 3017. It was in Gun Report in November 1980 and Wilson’s book in 1983. The serial number is for a 1 of 100 and was applied after the Universal search because they thought it was that serial number. Maybe not, since then a 1 of 100 with the same serial number sold at auction for 373k. Do you think RIA gets the estimate of 75-120k for the same serial number as is on the other gun? T/R

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