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Are rifles/carbines with gumwood stocks worth much less than plain walnut, assuming original to the gun ?
Winchester only used gumwood on the Carbines, Rifles were always stocked with walnut unless special ordered with something else. Typically speaking the gumwood stocked carbines will bring less $$$, but that is because they are not as durable as the walnut, and tend to be in lesser condition.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Winchester only used gumwood on the Carbines, Rifles were always stocked with walnut unless special ordered with something else. Typically speaking the gumwood stocked carbines will bring less $$$, but that is because they are not as durable as the walnut, and tend to be in lesser condition.
Bert
Conversely, wouldn’t those gumwoods in “collectible” condition garner a comparable, or even a higher price, vs a walnut, since it would add scarcity into the mix?
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
I have two SRC carbines. One a 25-35 and the other a 38-55. 1908 and 1927 .Both have Gumwood stocks, both are about 95%++, and both were very expensive. I doubt the Gumwood figured in to the price paid. Big Larry
Vince said
Bert H. said
Winchester only used gumwood on the Carbines, Rifles were always stocked with walnut unless special ordered with something else. Typically speaking the gumwood stocked carbines will bring less $$$, but that is because they are not as durable as the walnut, and tend to be in lesser condition.
BertConversely, wouldn’t those gumwoods in “collectible” condition garner a comparable, or even a higher price, vs a walnut, since it would add scarcity into the mix?
Vince,
It has not been my experience that gumwood ever adds a premium to the value. If you have two perfectly identical condition Model 1894 SRCs side by side, with the exact same price tag on them, with the only difference being the stock wood type, the vast majority of collectors will walk away with the walnut stocked gun first. That implies to me that there is as slight negative value for the gumwood stocked specimens.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
FWIT:
I have an 1894 carbine that came originally with gumwood stocks. It was made in 1911. From what I understand, during the decade around WWI maple wood became a bit scarce due to all the wood going into military weapons, so Winchester used gumwood on some carbines only.
At any rate, that gumwood stock was the most awful thing I’ve ever seen on a Winchester. It was full of dark and black splotches under the finish. I initially thought someone had beaten it with a chain and then an attempt had been made to restore it. After talking to a local gun shop owner who fancied himself something of a restorer, he informed me that the black spots were a common characteristic of old gumwood.
Here are some photo examples of the spots on gumwood:
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/jc-17-marked-1894/
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/winchester-1892-lever-action-carbine.-2207-c-87e99aa46e
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Thank you folks for your thoughts. After going to shows for many years, as far as I know I have yet to see a gumwood stock.
After many years of collecting, the Gumwood stocks were recently brought to light to me. I had no idea. Just figured they were all walnut of different color.
I am certainly no wood expert. I know the 1908 25-35 is Gumwood as the seller, a member here, told me it was. The 1927 38-55 has a different color stock and through pictures of it, was told it was Gumwood as well. Both these carbines are a little scarce and have nice condition. I doubt I would have turned down either due to the Gumwood stock. Actually, I may have more in my collection I am unaware of. Big Larry
I have a 94 carbine 32-40 early gum wood (I think ) ser#307814 . Im not impressed with the gumwood. I dont do any restoration work on any guns. I leave them as they are, but this carbine had already been re-blued , but gumwood looked awful , so I got a friend to re-finish gumwood and now looks OK
Phil
I like the gumwood so long as it is pristine on an otherwise pristine carbine. But the more dents and bumps (however minor) you get in it also adds to the dark spots. As far as durability from normal use or excessive use is concerned– it sucks IMO.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Vince said
Bert H. said
Winchester only used gumwood on the Carbines, Rifles were always stocked with walnut unless special ordered with something else. Typically speaking the gumwood stocked carbines will bring less $$$, but that is because they are not as durable as the walnut, and tend to be in lesser condition.
Bert
Conversely, wouldn’t those gumwoods in “collectible” condition garner a comparable, or even a higher price, vs a walnut, since it would add scarcity into the mix?
Vince, when I was looking for a model 1894 DCP carbine, I found a few for sale within a short period of time. One had walnut wood and the other two had gumwood. After researching these specific models I found almost all had gumwood stocks, which fell into the correct period and Ser range.
One of the gumwoods I was looking at(both 1915) had better than average wood and I acquired it. The wood fit perfectly and I felt it was original to the gun where as the walnut may not have been during this Royal Navy purchase and period.
It doesn’t letter(1915) but I thought I might have to explain why it had walnut over gumwood if I ever sold it so I thought it would garner as much or more value for the same reason you mentioned.
RickC
Rick C
Gumwood adds no value to a firearm due to being “rare”. It isn’t even rare. It was a design variation circa WWI.
And, sometimes when something is uncommon, it isn’t necessarily more valuable. Walnut is, overwhelmingly, the wood of choice for gunstocks. Maple is a distant second. Gumwood is distantly far, far behind.
The only way gumwood would be more desirable than a similarly stocked in walnut firearm would be if the condition of the gumwood stocked firearm was considerably better, if the walnut stock was refinished and the gumwood stocked rifle was not, or if the walnut stocked gun had a replacement stock.
Yes I’m very aware of the differences and desirability of walnut over gumwood. My feeling is the DCP guns wouldn’t lose value based on gumwood if that’s how they were all made and shipped for that order, or at least the vast majority.
Rick C
RickC said
Yes I’m very aware of the differences and desirability of walnut over gumwood. My feeling is the DCP guns wouldn’t lose value based on gumwood if that’s how they were all made and shipped for that order, or at least the vast majority.
Bert,
Over what years and serial numbers was gumwood used?
Thank you.
Mike
I found this from Bert in another Gumwood thread from 2017.
“Winchester began using it on the Model 1892 and Model 1894 Carbines at least as early as 1907 (my survey of the Model 1894 begins in May 1907, at serial number 354000). From 1908 – 1921, gumwood was the predominant stock material for the Model 94 SRCs. Gumwood continued to be used on the Model 94 Carbines until at least serial number 982459 (July 1925).”
Rick C
I just searched through my research survey file and discovered that the highest (latest) recorded Model 94 that I have documented with gumwood is S/N 1004427, a Trapper Carbine with a PR date of 7/25/1927. Further, in the first six months of the year 1927, approximately 50% of the Carbines were manufactured with gumwood.
To give a background history on Winchesters use of gumwwod, the first use of it was on the Model 1900 .22 rim fire single shot bolt-action rifle. It continued to be the stock material for follow-on Models 1902 and 1904, and when the Model 1906 slide-action rifle was introduced, it was the first “repeater” to be stock with gumwood. Shortly after the Model 1906 was put into production, Winchester began stocking the Models 1892 and 1894 SRCs with gumwood. However, if a Model 1892 or Model 1894 SRC was special ordered with a non-standard butt (Shotgun or Rifle), Winchester used black walnut for the stocks.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Online
Bert H. said
To give a background history on Winchesters use of gumwwod, the first use of it was on the Model 1900 .22 rim fire single shot bolt-action rifle. It continued to be the stock material for follow-on Models 1902 and 1904, and when the Model 1906 slide-action rifle was introduced, it was the first “repeater” to be stock with gumwood. Shortly after the Model 1906 was put into production, Winchester began stocking the Models 1892 and 1894 SRCs with gumwood. However, if a Model 1892 or Model 1894 SRC was special ordered with a non-standard butt (Shotgun or Rifle), Winchester used black walnut for the stocks.
Good synopsis, I was hoping someone would mention the .22’s since it first appeared on the 1900. It was also used on the Thumb Trigger model.
Now, as a .22 guy, I would PREFER gumwood on those .22 models that originally came equipped standard with it. If I see a 1900, 1902, 1904 or TT with a walnut stock I usually get suspicious that it has been replaced since most of the replacement stock companies use walnut since gumwood is hard to source nowadays. That is just my view from a different perspective.
Great thread!
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
Bert H. said
To give a background history on Winchesters use of gumwwod, the first use of it was on the Model 1900 .22 rim fire single shot bolt-action rifle. It continued to be the stock material for follow-on Models 1902 and 1904, and when the Model 1906 slide-action rifle was introduced, it was the first “repeater” to be stock with gumwood. Shortly after the Model 1906 was put into production, Winchester began stocking the Models 1892 and 1894 SRCs with gumwood. However, if a Model 1892 or Model 1894 SRC was special ordered with a non-standard butt (Shotgun or Rifle), Winchester used black walnut for the stocks.
Good synopsis, I was hoping someone would mention the .22’s since it first appeared on the 1900. It was also used on the Thumb Trigger model.
Now, as a .22 guy, I would PREFER gumwood on those .22 models that originally came equipped standard with it. If I see a 1900, 1902, 1904 or TT with a walnut stock I usually get suspicious that it has been replaced since most of the replacement stock companies use walnut since gumwood is hard to source nowadays. That is just my view from a different perspective.
Great thread!
I totally agree JWA. That was basically my thought when faced with the decision to choose gumwood or walnut on the 1894 DCP. The gumwood may not have been as pretty, but it was correct.
Rick C
Bert, i
Bert H. said
I just searched through my research survey file and discovered that the highest (latest) recorded Model 94 that I have documented with gumwood is S/N 1004427, a Trapper Carbine with a PR date of 7/25/1927. Further, in the first six months of the year 1927, approximately 50% of the Carbines were manufactured with gumwood.To give a background history on Winchesters use of gumwwod, the first use of it was on the Model 1900 .22 rim fire single shot bolt-action rifle. It continued to be the stock material for follow-on Models 1902 and 1904, and when the Model 1906 slide-action rifle was introduced, it was the first “repeater” to be stock with gumwood. Shortly after the Model 1906 was put into production, Winchester began stocking the Models 1892 and 1894 SRCs with gumwood. However, if a Model 1892 or Model 1894 SRC was special ordered with a non-standard butt (Shotgun or Rifle), Winchester used black walnut for the stocks.
Bert, i have a winchester 1906, standard rifle mfg around 1915 i think it has british proof marks on barrel and receiver. It is stocked with nice grain walnut. would this be because it was shipped to England.
Tony
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