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Gaps in wood to metal fit
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Troutdale, OR
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November 24, 2022 - 6:10 pm
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Take a look at the gap between the receiver and the forearm on this one. What causes this and is there any way to remedy?  Can wood really shrink that much?

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-1894-pre-64/winchester-model-1894-deluxe-src.cfm?gun_id=102135075

Don

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November 24, 2022 - 6:27 pm
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What causes it is simple… that forend stock is not original to that gun.  The remedy… stop putting together guns for the purpose of profiteering.  The one thing that it is not, is “shrinkage”, so No, it cannot shrink that much.

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November 24, 2022 - 7:13 pm
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I find the piece a bit suspect.  What interests me is that it appears in the letterable range – yet no mention of letter.  A carbine like this really needs a letter!

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November 24, 2022 - 7:14 pm
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Bert H. said
What causes it is simple… that forend stock is not original to that gun.  The remedy… stop putting together guns for the purpose of profiteering.  The one thing that it is not, is “shrinkage”, so No, it cannot shrink that much.

  

Wow Bert. How did you conclude the forend not being original?  Did you already have this carbine documented in your survey in a different configuration, or??  Would be nice if the Groves would post the entire serial numbers on their guns…

Don

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November 24, 2022 - 7:38 pm
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deerhunter said

Bert H. said

What causes it is simple… that forend stock is not original to that gun.  The remedy… stop putting together guns for the purpose of profiteering.  The one thing that it is not, is “shrinkage”, so No, it cannot shrink that much.

  

Wow Bert. How did you conclude the forend not being original?  Did you already have this carbine documented in your survey in a different configuration, or??  Would be nice if the Groves would post the entire serial numbers on their guns…

Don

  

Like Bert said the forend may match a letter but it is not original to this gun.  Terrible fit and the color is way off from that of the stock.  Usually both pieces are made from the same piece of wood.  As far as a partial serial number, Gosh, I wonder why anyone would do that?  Makes it hard to get a letter?

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November 25, 2022 - 1:07 pm
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As the owner of a Classic 1866, told me in many cases Shrinkage is due to Sanding, or switching..  for the most part..Bill

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November 25, 2022 - 1:26 pm
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What I also find interesting is that there is ZERO bluing left on the receiver and scratches on the right hand side of it but the butt stock is pristine!  It looks like it was made yesterday!  Or at most a few months ago.  I always look at the entire rifle and ask myself does the entire piece appear on the same condition?  Is it worn evenly across all surfaces?

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November 25, 2022 - 2:07 pm
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twobit said
What I also find interesting is that there is ZERO bluing left on the receiver and scratches on the right hand side of it but the butt stock is pristine!  It looks like it was made yesterday!  Or at most a few months ago.  I always look at the entire rifle and ask myself does the entire piece appear on the same condition?  Is it worn evenly across all surfaces?

Michael

  

I agree.  The condition and wear of this rifle doesn’t add up.

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November 25, 2022 - 2:13 pm
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Take a close look at the stud holding the sling ring. Definatly not right.

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November 25, 2022 - 2:23 pm
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tionesta1 said
Take a close look at the stud holding the sling ring. Definatly not right.

  

So it should look like a real ring stud as shown below???  How could a well known dealer have missed that?

94-Ring-Small.jpgImage Enlarger

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November 25, 2022 - 2:27 pm
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twobit said

tionesta1 said

Take a close look at the stud holding the sling ring. Definatly not right.

  

So it should look like a real ring stud as shown below???  How could a well known dealer have missed that?

94-Ring-Small.jpgImage Enlarger

Michael

  

Exactly.

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November 25, 2022 - 6:41 pm
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Wood can and will shrink but it does so across the grain. The shrinkage lengthwise is normally so minimal as never to be noticed.  This is why the fit on a buttplate can be off a little.  It also can and will change depending on the humidity.  Dry will shrink and moist will swell.  Generally the older wood is the less this will occur but it still can.

THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!

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November 25, 2022 - 7:05 pm
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Wood can and will shrink but it does so across the grain.Old Guns said

  

Little more than yr ago a friend & I nailed down 5/4 X 6″ decking planks to build a new floor at my Club range.  We used a 5′ steel bar to wedge the planks as tightly together as possible to prevent brass from getting caught if cracks developed between the boards.  An exercise in futility, as cracks between the planks now range from 1/4″ min to 1/2″. 

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November 25, 2022 - 7:34 pm
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clarence said

Wood can and will shrink but it does so across the grain.Old Guns said

  

Little more than yr ago a friend & I nailed down 5/4 X 6″ decking planks to build a new floor at my Club range.  We used a 5′ steel bar to wedge the planks as tightly together as possible to prevent brass from getting caught if cracks developed between the boards.  An exercise in futility, as cracks between the planks now range from 1/4″ min to 1/2″. 

  

For the rifle under discussion, the gap is not large enough for a piece of brass to fall into.  Still, I don’t think it is an example of shrinkage.  It comes down to how much is too much when it comes to labeling something shrinkage.  My recollection is often when I do see a small gap, it tends to be associated with fancy wood.  Even this rebarreled M1886 that we’ve been discussing on another thread, has a small gap: 

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/87/3075/antique-winchester-model-1886-deluxe-lightweight-rifle

The other observation I have is the gap is almost always seen between the forearm and the front of the frame vs. the buttstock and the rear of the receiver.  “Shrinkage” around the tangs is always suspect as sanding is a possibility.  The gap we see between the front of the receiver and the rear of the forearm would not be caused by sanding (although sanding will cause the wood to be below the metal?

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November 25, 2022 - 7:57 pm
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I started a topic on the gap subject in March of 2021.  The various gaps I have seen over the years have interested me and spotting a significant gap on a rifle used as part of the WACO website advertising caught my attention:

https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/question-about-model-1886-pictured-on-home-page-of-this-site/

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November 26, 2022 - 12:16 am
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Lets just face it, look where the gun is coming from! I can show you another too.

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November 26, 2022 - 12:30 am
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clarence said

Wood can and will shrink but it does so across the grain.Old Guns said

  

Little more than yr ago a friend & I nailed down 5/4 X 6″ decking planks to build a new floor at my Club range.  We used a 5′ steel bar to wedge the planks as tightly together as possible to prevent brass from getting caught if cracks developed between the boards.  An exercise in futility, as cracks between the planks now range from 1/4″ min to 1/2″. 

  

You undoubtedly were not using kiln dried American Black Walnut for deck planking.  Typical deck planking is pressure treated softwood or Cedar, both of which will shrink and warp when exposed to the elements.  Hardwoods when properly dried almost never shrink with typical use.

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November 26, 2022 - 2:00 am
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Bert H. said

You undoubtedly were not using kiln dried American Black Walnut for deck planking.  

No, but I’ll make a special point of ordering that for my next decking job.  Or maybe fiddle-back maple.

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November 26, 2022 - 2:04 am
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clarence said

Bert H. said

You undoubtedly were not using kiln dried American Black Walnut for deck planking.  

No, but I’ll make a special point of ordering that for my next decking job.  Or maybe fiddle-back maple.

  

Make sure to let us know how much it costs Laugh

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November 26, 2022 - 3:24 am
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I have built my share of furniture with American Walnut aged and dried for 20 years.  When it comes from outside to inside it always shrinks a little.  Dovetails that were perfectly flush will sit slightly below the end grain.  Humidity affects wood.   The gap on the gun is not from shrinkage.  Fancy wood is unstable thus you never see it in any areas requiring the wood to strong and straight.  We all know Winchester made sure the wrist grain was straight. 

THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!

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