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Early pre-1922 patent recoil pad
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Posts: 87
May 17, 2022 - 2:12 am

1sp_QuotePost

What do the members think of this pad.  It is orange, not red like the 1922 pads and hard (like a Silver’s pad) not soft.764CB31F-4F4F-447F-A1E5-698CFFFD2F13.jpegImage Enlarger

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NY
Posts: 6150
May 17, 2022 - 2:26 am

2sp_QuotePost

JC said I’ve never
What do the members think of this pad.  It is orange, not red like the 1922 pads and hard (like a Silver’s pad) not soft.

  

I’ve never touched one of these early pads that wasn’t hard as a rock.  We must assume their condition now is the result of chemical changes in the rubber since mfg., not their original cond.  In fact, if it was soft, I’d assume “repro.”

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Posts: 4097
May 17, 2022 - 5:55 pm

3sp_QuotePost

clarence said

JC said I’ve never

What do the members think of this pad.  It is orange, not red like the 1922 pads and hard (like a Silver’s pad) not soft.

  

I’ve never touched one of these early pads that wasn’t hard as a rock.  We must assume their condition now is the result of chemical changes in the rubber since mfg., not their original cond.  In fact, if it was soft, I’d assume “repro.”

  

I agree with Clarence

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Posts: 87
May 17, 2022 - 8:31 pm

4sp_QuotePost

Does anyone know what years the Win. orange patent pending pads appeared and when the 1922 patent pads began to predominate?  I would assume there was some overlap by a few years.

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Winchester, VA
Posts: 959
May 17, 2022 - 9:54 pm

5sp_QuotePost

Hi Jeff-

I can speak to the origins of the Winchester solid red pads with the June 6,1922 Patent Date.  Note that there’s NO <space> between the comma after “June 6,” and “1922”.  The Galzan “repros” corrected that typographical error, which identifies them as non-Winchester repros… Wink

Check out US Patent No. 1,418,532.  Patented by one James R. Caldwell and assigned to the Seamless Rubber Company of New Haven, CT, which BTW manufactured the “NoShoc” brand recoil pad for rifles.  Took me a while to find this on the USPTO site:

US-Pat-1418532-1.pngImage EnlargerUS-Pat-1418532-2.pngImage EnlargerUS-Pat-1418532-3.pngImage Enlarger

Short story is that Winchester outsourced those solid red pads from Seamless Rubber Company. Similar to the way that the later Ventilated pads were made by Pachmayr.  Internally, the Winchester pads are identical to the Noshoc pad of the day except for the embossed “Winchester” instead of “NoShoc”…  Wink   

I can only speak to M70s, but the first Winchester bolt gun to be regularly supplied with a recoil pad was the 375 MAGNUM chambering in the M70.  It has been said (by Roger Rule) that some of the earliest M70 375 MAGNUMs (specifically the infamous “pencil barrel” guns with the standard barrel contour) were fitted with NoShoc pads marked “NoShoc”.  I have seen one such gun in the 3XXX serial number range (not my gun so I didn’t give the full S/N) that has a NoShoc-marked pad and that I think is legit.

As for color…  Most of the older (as in pre-war) solid red pads I’ve seen are (nowadays anyway) more of a reddish brown than red, but Winchester used these pads on the M70 (375 H&H MAGNUM and 338 WIN MAGNUM) at least until 1960 or so and the later ones are more consistently what I’d call red.

As for the pad in your picture.  I do not know…  But I suspect that the Seamless “NoShoc” pad with the June 6,1922 date was the earliest factory supplied recoil pad Winchester used in cataloged production, and that the pad you showed is a much later Winchester product (if even Winchester), not a “pre-patent date” pad.  I could surely be wrong of course!!!

To all reading this… Educate me… What Winchester Model(s) before the 375 MAGNUM M70 in 1936-37, came factory supplied with a solid red recoil pad (NOT including special orders).

Thanks!!!

Lou

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WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
May 18, 2022 - 12:11 am

6sp_QuotePost

Lou,

The Model 1897 and Model 1912 shotguns were available on special order with the June 6,1922 Patent date recoil pads shortly after it was introduced, and I believe that when the Model 12 Heavy Duck Gun was introduced around 1934, it was standard with it. Additionally, the Models 94, 55, and 64 lever-action rifles could be special ordered with it.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Winchester, VA
Posts: 959
May 18, 2022 - 2:07 am

7sp_QuotePost

Hi Bert-

Thank you!!!  I don’t know much about Winchesters that aren’t M70s (and not enough about M70s either), but I’ve assumed there were Winchester firearms produced earlier than the M70 that would have had that pad.  Have you seen any factory original Winchester firearm with the June 6,1922 pad (special order or not) that was marked “NoShoc” and not Winchester?  

Here’s a 1932 ad (low res from the internet) and a pic (better res but still internet) of an older M70 with one (not saying this was factory-installed but it has the Patent date on it):

Noshoc-Ad-1932.jpgImage EnlargerNoShoc-1.jpegImage Enlarger

FWIW… Roger Rule claimed that some of the “pencil barrel” 375 MAGNUM M70s were made with NoShoc pads marled as such.  Of course, he also estimated that there were less than ten of those pencil barrel rifles made, so he couldn’t have had much of a sample size… Wink

As for Jeff’s original question… I really don’t know… The Seamless patent was based on the idea of a soft rubber inside layer fused to a more durable outside shell.  I supposed Seamless could have made pads during the “Patent Pending” period, but would they have been marked Winchester under license?  I just have no info on that…

Best,

Lou

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WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

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Posts: 87
May 18, 2022 - 2:14 am

8sp_QuotePost

I recall coming across a post (I thought on this website years ago) discussing these “patent pending” pads as preceding the “1922 patent” pads.  If I remember the discussion correctly, these earlier ones would turn up on guns for a few years after 1922.  Does anyone remember that or own a gun with a pad like that? 

As I mentioned, this pad strongly resembles the Silver’s pad in color and firmness.  On the Parker site I recall some discussion of an “American” Silver’s type with the smaller screw holes like this one has.  It does seem genuinely old. 

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Posts: 1541
May 18, 2022 - 2:19 am

9sp_QuotePost

I have saved a catalog page that discusses the Winchester Recoil Pad, but I forgot to include what date catalog it was from. I’m assuming late 20s early 30s. It is page 233 of the catalog.

It mentions other recoil pads “In Stock” that could be ordered. 

RecoilPad-CatalogPg233.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Sincerely,

Maverick

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Winchester, VA
Posts: 959
May 18, 2022 - 2:23 am

10sp_QuotePost

Hi Jeff-

You could well be correct… Laugh  I do not know… Frown

If your “Patent Pending” pad was not from Seamless/NoShoc it could make sense.  Would be interesting to compare your pad with a take-off June 6,1922 dated Winchester (Seamless) pad, but I do not have a loose one.  Did Winchester outsource Winchester marked pads from Silvers prior to the post-1922 contract with Seamless?  I do not know…

Let us know what your find out!!! Laugh
Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10608
May 18, 2022 - 3:25 am

11sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Bert-

Thank you!!!  I don’t know much about Winchesters that aren’t M70s (and not enough about M70s either), but I’ve assumed there were Winchester firearms produced earlier than the M70 that would have had that pad.  Have you seen any factory original Winchester firearm with the June 6,1922 pad (special order or not) that was marked “NoShoc” and not Winchester?  

Here’s a 1932 ad (low res from the internet) and a pic (better res but still internet) of an older M70 with one (not saying this was factory-installed but it has the Patent date on it):

Noshoc-Ad-1932.jpgImage EnlargerNoShoc-1.jpegImage Enlarger

FWIW… Roger Rule claimed that some of the “pencil barrel” 375 MAGNUM M70s were made with NoShoc pads marled as such.  Of course, he also estimated that there were less than ten of those pencil barrel rifles made, so he couldn’t have had much of a sample size… Wink

As for Jeff’s original question… I really don’t know… The Seamless patent was based on the idea of a soft rubber inside layer fused to a more durable outside shell.  I supposed Seamless could have made pads during the “Patent Pending” period, but would they have been marked Winchester under license?  I just have no info on that…

Best,

Lou

  

I have only encountered a very small number of Model 1897 shotguns with a NoShoc pad, and I do not remember if they had a June 6, 1922 patent date.  The few I have seen were in rough condition.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 87
May 19, 2022 - 12:39 am

12sp_QuotePost

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/model-12-recoil-pad.418521/

I found a link to the discussion I mentioned earlier in the post.  Turns out it was from Shotgunworld.  In the the thread, a post mentions that the “patent appl’d for” pads preceded the “June 6th,1922 patent” pads and that the poster states he had a few guns so equipped, even guns made into the 30’s.  The discussion seems to be mostly about early model 12 guns.  Do any of our members have a gun with a Win. patent appl’d for pad they could share pictures of?

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