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I agree with everything that TR said. Especially about finding an expert to look at your guns. But have him look at them before you buy is even better. You need to find an honest collector/dealer that can mentor you.
Don’t buy online. Never buy something you haven’t picked up and looked at. People make guns to match a letter. Don’t buy letters or stories.
Even with all that you see or hear you can still have fun.
steve004 said
I was musing today that I’m, “lucky” I didn’t have much money available to me during my active years of collecting. Because I had no choice but to buy lower grade stuff, I happened into the scenario where most everything I bought was right. Had I been, “unlucky” to have had some real money to work with, I would have surely purchased many pieces that would not hold up under knowledgeable scrutiny.
A sentiment that many of us “shooting grade” collectors can identify with.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I do ok now after 10 years or so looking and reading this forum, but there was a time when I first started when I could, and did get scammed. I had no knowledge base and no body close to show me. I did find several collectors that did mentor to me and that really helped. One of them finally started unloading some junk on me and that was the end of that relationship. I don’t care what you are collecting, you need to study up on it and have a place like this forum to go and ask questions. The information that I have gleaned from this forum is not replaceable with books or anything else except hands on with a good, honest mentor. I did find out that the people walking around big auctions asking if they can help are, for the most part, as uninformed as I was. A person collecting old Winchesters would be a fool not to belong to WACA and read the forums. I appreciate all who take part in the teaching. Peter
The subject rifle’s checkering has been freshened up for sure. A little too deep, too clean, and with sloppy borders. Notice the wavy appearance of the fore end checkering. Not factory quality. You will see subtle flaws on factory checkering but not this bad. In addition, the stocks are refinished. The comb point of the butt stock has been sanded off some as well. A very neat configuration.
Austin said
The subject rifle’s checkering has been freshened up for sure. A little too deep, too clean, and with sloppy borders. Notice the wavy appearance of the fore end checkering. Not factory quality. You will see subtle flaws on factory checkering but not this bad. In addition, the stocks are refinished. The comb point of the butt stock has been sanded off some as well. A very neat configuration.
Austin –
Do you think a restocking job (with non-factory wood) and (of course) non-factory checkering would also explain what you are seeing? Note, there are some fit issues.
steve004 said
Austin –
Do you think a restocking job (with non-factory wood) and (of course) non-factory checkering would also explain what you are seeing? Note, there are some fit issues.
The stocks are factory, just messed with.
Say the rifle is all original: What would its market value range be?
Say the rifle’s checkering has been recut/refreshed/refinished: What would its market value range be?
Say the rifle has been re-stocked: What would its market value range be?
James
jwm94 said
Say the rifle is all original: What would its market value range be?Say the rifle’s checkering has been recut/refreshed/refinished: What would its market value range be?
Say the rifle has been re-stocked: What would its market value range be?
James
The configuration is killer: Deluxe, extra light weight, 1/2 oct, short rifle, takedown, in .38-55 – get out of here!
My opinion:
As is – checkering has been recut/refreshed/refinished: $4,500-$5,000
Honest wood with good fit, same metal condition: Potentially $7,000
85% all around, untouched: $20,000+
Austin said
The configuration is killer: Deluxe, extra light weight, 1/2 oct, short rifle, takedown, in .38-55 – get out of here!
My opinion:
As is – checkering has been recut/refreshed/refinished: $4,500-$5,000
Honest wood with good fit, same metal condition: Potentially $7,000
85% all around, untouched: $20,000+
Good Morning Austin,
Thank you for answering my questions in such a persuasive manner. It is certainly a killer configuration!
Have a great day!
James
I’m going to express my pessimism about the feasibility of finding a good mentor. I think they are very few and far between. Sure, there are a fair number of people who view themselves as very knowledgeable. I’m sure most here have met them. And most here know that the majority of these people don’t know near as much as they think they do. Also, if the advice is to find one, that also sets a person up to end up with a, “mentor” who is going to potentially profit from the relationship. We all agree on caveat emptor when purchasing rifles and a similar philosophy is warranted when it comes selecting mentors.
I think this forum is the best sort of mentorship there is. One great aspect is there are many knowledgeable people here and collectively, through our differing opinions, we have more to offer as a group than we do individually. The various auctions we post bring out great discussion and analysis. There is much that can be learned from these posts. The subject of this thread is a great example. One caution when posting live auctions and items that are actively for sale: you might have spotted something and are wondering if it correct, worth the money, etc. Lots of people (guests, members, lurkers) will see it and if it is really right, and really a good deal… you’ve just created some competition for yourself 
Steve004,
What is wrong with paying someone to mentor a person on buying correct guns. We all have paid realtors, attorneys, financial advisers, stock brokers and others professionals to advise us on important matters. I would think anyone thinking of making a large investment in a gun would be happy to pay for an expert opinion. Bottom line is one should only buy what they understand or have someone your paying or willing to let them make a profit on a gun they own help you. The information on this site will only take you so far.
started47 said
Steve004,What is wrong with paying someone to mentor a person on buying correct guns. We all have paid realtors, attorneys, financial advisers, stock brokers and others professionals to advise us on important matters. I would think anyone thinking of making a large investment in a gun would be happy to pay for an expert opinion. Bottom line is one should only buy what they understand or have someone your paying or willing to let them make a profit on a gun they own help you. The information on this site will only take you so far.
Nothing wrong, it can be money well spent. Many times the expert would be happy to do it for a simple thank you. I have several collector friends that bring new purchases to my house while they have them on approval for my inspection and opinion, it’s a learning experience for the both of us. I don’t do pictures or look at guns they already own with no recourse. “People do shoot the barer of bad news.” When I’m at a gun show many of my friends ask my opinion on a gun, I can look at my convenience and let them known. Another thing to consider is pair up with an experienced collector when attending gun shows, it’s nice to have supper and discuss the neat guns you saw over a few drinks. Your wing man might see something you don’t. When in doubt, pass on it! Their’s more guns out there than you have money to buy. T/R
started47 said
Steve004,What is wrong with paying someone to mentor a person on buying correct guns. We all have paid realtors, attorneys, financial advisers, stock brokers and others professionals to advise us on important matters. I would think anyone thinking of making a large investment in a gun would be happy to pay for an expert opinion. Bottom line is one should only buy what they understand or have someone your paying or willing to let them make a profit on a gun they own help you. The information on this site will only take you so far.
In theory, I agree with you. Also, I was thinking was more of that group of people who are beginning collectors are not investing tens of thousands or hundred of thousands of dollars.
Online
steve004 said
In theory, I agree with you. Also, I was thinking was more of that group of people who are beginning collectors are not investing tens of thousands or hundred of thousands of dollars.
But investors are, beginner or otherwise. With perhaps dubious results.
Why do you think that these high dollar firearms auction houses take out full page ads in The Wall Street Journal just before their major auctions?
I think what I am resisting is the notion that there is some simple, easy, straightforward method to pick out rifles that are correct vs. not correct. My position is that it’s a jungle out there. But that’s just me.
steve004 said
I think what I am resisting is the notion that there is some simple, easy, straightforward method to pick out rifles that are correct vs. not correct. My position is that it’s a jungle out there. But that’s just me.
Steve,
It is a “jungle”, and No, there is No “simple, easy, straightforward method”. What I will tell you (and all others), is that experience and knowledge are the two primary factors. It takes many years of hands on experience to quickly sort through the chaff, and correctly identify bad versus good Winchesters (or other makes of old collectable firearms), and even then, the true experts can be fooled by an expert fake. There are no 100% guarantees, even by the best experts available.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
steve004 said
I’m going to express my pessimism about the feasibility of finding a good mentor. I think they are very few and far between. Sure, there are a fair number of people who view themselves as very knowledgeable. I’m sure most here have met them. And most here know that the majority of these people don’t know near as much as they think they do. Also, if the advice is to find one, that also sets a person up to end up with a, “mentor” who is going to potentially profit from the relationship. We all agree on caveat emptor when purchasing rifles and a similar philosophy is warranted when it comes selecting mentors.I think this forum is the best sort of mentorship there is. One great aspect is there are many knowledgeable people here and collectively, through our differing opinions, we have more to offer as a group than we do individually. The various auctions we post bring out great discussion and analysis. There is much that can be learned from these posts. The subject of this thread is a great example. One caution when posting live auctions and items that are actively for sale: you might have spotted something and are wondering if it correct, worth the money, etc. Lots of people (guests, members, lurkers) will see it and if it is really right, and really a good deal… you’ve just created some competition for yourself
Steve004,
Posting up auctions for discussions and analysis: I don’t do that unless it’s one of my guns, or it is a gun that I believe is a good buy and or all original. I prefer to email individuals whom I consider experts, if I am unsure of the originality of a piece that I might want to buy. But that’s just me, and it should be obvious to people as to why I deal with such issues in private. That said, it’s good to develop such mentor like relationships with knowledgeable people so as not to put someone’s gun(s) on the skyline.
James
Bert H. said
Steve,
It is a “jungle”, and No, there is No “simple, easy, straightforward method”. What I will tell you (and all others), is that experience and knowledge are the two primary factors. It takes many years of hands on experience to quickly sort through the chaff, and correctly identify bad versus good Winchesters (or other makes of old collectable firearms), and even then, the true experts can be fooled by an expert fake. There are no 100% guarantees, even by the best experts available.
Bert
Bert, That is the one of the most true honest statements about the collecting field. Even the most legit and most knowledgeable and well meaning experts can get it wrong and they also didn’t become an expert over night. In reality you just can’t phone it in to an expert, one must come to their own terms about a decision. But having a separate set of eyes look something over is also very helpful from time to time.
Some of you may not be a fan, but I enjoy the TV show “Pawn Stars”. One of my favorite so called “Experts” on that show is Mark Hall-Patton. He is a administrator of the Clark County Heritage Museum and the Howard W. Cannon Aviation Museum and is one of the main experts featured in the show. Recently the main cast calls him the “Beard of Knowledge”, because of his expertise of historical antiques. Unlike most of the experts at Pawn Stars, he doesn’t give the approximate value of the item, since he prefers to only give its authenticity and historical value.
In a way I wish more “Experts” were like this. Only relaying whether something is authentic or not, in my opinion this is more helpful and important than the estimated value of a piece. I imagine Mr. Mark Hall-Patton does this for his own legal reasons, but in a way it makes him legitimately a true un-biased expert in the matter.
I personally don’t wantonly consider myself an expert of anything, and wouldn’t want the burden of being “THE EXPERT”. Also of late I have to remind myself that just because there are a few “Nay Sayers” in a group doesn’t make them right ether. And I don’t won’t to always come off as one that appears to immediately shoot something down and say that something isn’t what it appears to be. There are sometimes plenty of what we just don’t know about a particular thing, that often upon a second glance, makes us rethink. I’m reminded of a article in a recent edition of the collector magazine, “White Elk’s 1st Model 1873”. It reminded me of a 76 rifle with similar markings on the elevator that was up for auction a few years back. I recall totally thinking to myself that those scratches don’t mean a dam thing. Makes me want to go find it again and give it a second look. You live and learn.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Bert H. said
Steve,
It is a “jungle”, and No, there is No “simple, easy, straightforward method”. What I will tell you (and all others), is that experience and knowledge are the two primary factors. It takes many years of hands on experience to quickly sort through the chaff, and correctly identify bad versus good Winchesters (or other makes of old collectable firearms), and even then, the true experts can be fooled by an expert fake. There are no 100% guarantees, even by the best experts available.
Bert
Well said, but so is buying a used car. Colt has Kopec, send him the gun, he takes it apart and writes you a letter. The letter has the good and bad, you know what your looking at. If you are looking at a Colt and it has a Kopec Letter, call him up, he knows the gun. The auction houses and big dealers use him. The problem is, Winchester does not have a Kopec. The experts are employed by the auction houses or are in the business of selling guns. The expert can not have a horse in the race, there lies the PROBLEM! T/R
TR said
The experts are employed by the auction houses or are in the business of selling guns. The expert can not have a horse in the race, there lies the PROBLEM! T/R
That’s probably the most insightful observation made on this subject to date. I keep thinking of the “Albee to Lawton” Model 1886.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
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