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Case colored vs. blued hammers and levers on 1892 carbines
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December 28, 2021 - 4:06 am
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When did Winchester transition from case-colored hammers and levers to blued hammers and levers on 1892 carbines?  In the 397,000 serial number range I would expect a case-colored hammer and lever on this 1892 trapper.  Am I missing something? A refinish??

https://www.thewinchestergrove.com/1892/397xxx.htm

Don

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December 28, 2021 - 4:26 am
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That 92 has the post-1905 proof marks on the barrel and receiver. If you search at serial # 397,000 to #397,999 = 1907 DOM. The gun is outside the letterable range, so no help there.

I suspect a re-blued, but was it a factory R&R?  That trapper 92 is in great condition. Most saw much use and abuse. 

If I recall they stopped doing the Color Case Hardening around 1910, but could be wrong. Also don’t recall if that is for rifles only and if carbines stopped earlier.

TwoBit will probably chime in and give you his two cents.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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December 28, 2021 - 4:32 am
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Totally refinished. 

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December 28, 2021 - 2:57 pm
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I would have to agree that this carbine does appear to be refinished.  A good job of it, but refinished nonetheless.  The wood is not as proud to the tang as I would expect nor is the fit as precise as I would expect, some edges are slightly softer than I should think, and the bluing isn’t quite what I would expect from that timeframe.

Also, we are now out at least a century from when most SRC firearms were produced, and it certainly raises an eyebrow when I see such a carbine exhibiting absolutely no wear to the receiver caused by the saddle ring in a century’s time or more.  Of course it’s possible but unlikely.

With regards to the original question, I have two high condition Model 1894 RIFLES—note that mine are rifles and not carbines, and that these are Model 1894s and not 1892s—the one produced in 1908 has vivid case colouring on the hammer and lever.  The one produced in 1918 has a blued hammer and lever.  Both are undoubtedly original and came from the Woody Frey (RIP) collection.  The time frame may differ slightly based on whether or not the Model is an 1892 or 1894 and if a rifle or carbine configuration, but I shouldn’t think it would differ by much.

So, based on the data I provided, one can say that case coloured components were commonplace at least until 1908 and were not being used by 1918.  Having said that, I would think that case colouring ended earlier in my 1908 to 1918 time frame rather than later and circa 1910 seems about right.

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December 28, 2021 - 5:56 pm
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It was right around 1915 when the finish on Model 92 hammers and levers changed from case colored to blue.

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December 28, 2021 - 6:17 pm
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I concur with Tom… 1915/1916 was the transition from case color levers, hammers, and butt plates. For the Single Shot, case color finished breech blocks, levers, and hammers were normal until 1919.

Bert

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December 28, 2021 - 7:42 pm
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Thanks everyone.  Looks like the verdict leans toward a refinish.  Like the old saying “if it’s too good to be true, it probably is.”

Don

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December 28, 2021 - 7:46 pm
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Other than the cc hammer not being period correct it looked good to me ??‍♂️

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December 28, 2021 - 9:31 pm
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RickC said
Other than the cc hammer not being period correct it looked good to me ??‍♂️  

No case color on the lever also.  Makes one wonder what else has been refinished, swapped, or??  Did they stop at the hammer and lever?  Likely not.  If everything else on this carbine were original finish, there would be no reason for a refinished or swapped hammer and lever since the carbine shows little to no use at all. Probably a high end restoration minus the incorrect blued hammer and lever. Just my 2 cents.

Don

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December 28, 2021 - 9:39 pm
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No argument here Don. Bluing looked good to me from the photos only, but that’s the reason I don’t buy internet auction guns.

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December 28, 2021 - 11:59 pm
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RickC said
No argument here Don. Bluing looked good to me from the photos only, but that’s the reason I don’t buy internet auction guns.  

What catches my eye is there are several receiver screws that are not flush with the receiver, the polishing marks on the barrel, the blue coverage on the caliber stamp and proof marks, lack of wear at the high points of the front and rear barrel bands, the blue color/shine on the lever, and the amount of dark bluing remaining on the rear sight.  Just my two cents, which sometimes ain’t worth 2 cents.

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December 30, 2021 - 3:18 pm
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I guess this is why I ,personally don’t make an assessment on a gun like this , based on pictures. What I see is this , a 98% original condition ’92 s.r.c.. What I see in the pictures is, It has several striation marks on the recv’r,. along with high point wear on the edges and slightly thinning blue. I see a shadow under the rawhide on the ring I see several slight scratches on the bbl. and mag.tube  and some wear around the muzzle and mag. cap. The wood I can’t say. Being a 16″ trapper it is one rare piece. It is definetly a gun I personally would want to have in My hands before I offered an opinion. A R&R, maybe, re; the blued lever and hammer. I have had several s.r.c.’s in this “original ” cond. or better,  but only one ’94 15″ trapper , they are very hard to find. I don’t think the gun is terribly overpriced either, if it’s original. After My Paterson “fiasco” this past year, that I had two “experts” look at the pictures before buying, I just won’t buy  from a picture unless I know the seller real well. I don’t know Don real well , but I do know He wouldn’t intentionally sell a “fake”. I’ve had several guns “tore apart” by folks looking at My pictures, which are not great, and once their opinions are stated, right or wrong , they hang on that gun and affect the value. All I’m sayin’ is be very careful when offering an opinion , from a picture, which is quite different than an observation

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December 30, 2021 - 9:26 pm
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I agree with all the comments on the metal-work.

But what I don’t see is what bothers me – the wood seems a little too clean and aside from not being proud enough of the metal there doesn’t seem to be any of the little dents and dings that stocks & forearms pick up over a 100 year period of time.

And, maybe it’s the lighting but the color is a little off.

The photo’s are good quality and the sheen on the woodwork would seem to accentuate any flaws – but none are apparent.

So, a the very least I think it’s been cleaned-up by someone who knew what they were doing.

But I could be wrong.

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December 31, 2021 - 12:00 am
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Hello all,

I have been busy repainting the living room at the ranch house so have not been spending too much time on line the last couple days. 

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The coyotes woke me at 3 am last night howling like crazy a few hundred yards away.  So I dragged myself out of bed and grabbed my thermal scoped rifle to go see what was going on.  They were in thicket in a neighbor’s pasture where they commonly like to hang out based on my experience.  I drove out on an ATV and set up about 400 yards from them and gave a few squeals on a hand made reed call.  This coyote came loping across a fresh cut hay field and then decided to sit down until she could figure out where the “dying rabbit” actually was.  She never did get that part quite worked out!  (I did not shoot the image upside down.  It got rotated when downloading into the forum)

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So… The trapper SRC absolutely should have a case hardened lever and hammer for the serial number range of the gun.  The full SN of the gun is 397579.  It was offered for auction at Morphy in Nov 2020 as Lot 1303 and then again at Morphy in Nov 2021 as Lot 1192 where it sold for $3000.  And now here it is at Groves in Dec 2021 being “offered” for $12,900!!  In the Nov 2021 listing it notes that the finish is “reapplied.”  Funny how THAT info did not get passed along to Grove.  It also had an Express rear sight at Morphy which has been changed.  Here is the Morphy Listing:  https://www.proxibid.com/C-WINCHESTER-MODEL-1892-TRAPPER-SADDLE-RING-CARBINE/lotInformation/64259405

I also think that the rifle shows a #2 style barrel address which is way out of line for the SN range of the gun.   So yeah go ahead and step right up to purchase a 400% marked up previously pointed out refinished “gun” that has LOTS of questionable problems with it.  And people think Gunbroker.com if full of problems and misleading information???!!!

Happy New Year.

Be carful out there

Michael

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December 31, 2021 - 3:45 pm
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Thanks Michael for Your factual information.

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December 31, 2021 - 6:19 pm
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One other thing that bothers me about that gun… at the time it was manufactured, Winchester was using Gumwood stocks versus Walnut. I suspect that the stocks on that gun are not original.

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December 31, 2021 - 8:37 pm
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Bert H. said
One other thing that bothers me about that gun… at the time it was manufactured, Winchester was using Gumwood stocks versus Walnut. I suspect that the stocks on that gun are not original.  

And in the 114 years since the gun was manufactured the wood has NEVER been scratched!  THAT really is amazing how well it has been cared for.  (Rich with sarcasm!!)

Michael 

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January 1, 2022 - 2:18 am
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Good eye, gents. Something about that stock bothered me, I guess it was that pretty walnut.

Nice looking place, Michael. Looks like your yodel dogs are fat & healthy. 

 

Mike

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