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The rareity of the carving pattern D to copy,in the first place, adds to why it’s genuine. How many examples have you physiclly examined Bert? none? my guess. So your claim it”not factory” is really moronic. “Talking thru yer hat..” Leroy Mertz had an 1886 with this pattern D he sold for 250K , on his website to compare to, it matches perfectly. the one phpto of the right panel , on mine, shows the delicate crosshatching, around the oak leaf perfectly. From pictures or Winchester’s ,Turnbull’s cataloge , a carver could not duplicate ,what the photos , engravings don’t show.. QED. My opinion is it was an employee gun, maybe tool room or custom shop employee, foreman, high enuf up in management to build order it.. The carved stocks had to have a few on hand ,for orders, in different grades of wood, as the oil stocks for carving are seperate from standard stocks, the oil stocks were soaked in turps & oil for months , especially for fine checkering, as plain wood torn at grain with fine checkering. As a production facility the Oak leaf pattern D was a popular choice, the plain wood is much nicer to carve and shows the pattern well, as fancy wood distracts from th detail. outside Exhibition grade guns, carved stocks were “on hand” to some degree. i see a well balanced factory short rifle..2/3 mag, 24″ barrel. Don’t care what you guys think anymore…
I’m sure Doug Turnbull has duplicated this pattern for lots of money on highly engraved rifles, i have the cataloge somewhere he put out a while ago. “i doubt anyone would varnish it in as purchased..as you can see in the photos. This was GB item a few wweks ago, and went for 1426.00, cost 1560.00 by the time i NICS checked. 9;30 o Sunday night, either all you guys were sleeping or watching somethint else. Any idea how many gun auctions end Sundays at 9;30? You can make all the stupid remarks you want, i got a great rifle
, at a great price…. there were 26 bidders prior to the 15 minute time, it was at 1250.00 i bid 20 minutes before.the end , i had expected it to go to 2500.00 but after my bid. no one else bid..BTW barrels were 26″ & 22″ 24″ was Special order.. I bought a half mag 1915 ,1894 in .32-40 Allentown PA that Sunday, never expecting to win this…
If you look at this graphic, although an artist’s depiction, the Style D carving has much more depth than yours does. I couldn’t find an actual rifle in the Style D pattern to attach to this post, but the ones I’ve seen demonstrate much more artistic talent than the amateur nature of the rifle you own. Also, the finish of your rifle is atypical of that from the same era as yours is too glossy. Lastly, if there were 26 bidders on this rifle and it sold that cheaply, the other 25 bidders thought it was neat to own at a reasonable price, but none were convinced that it was factory work. If they were convinced it was, it would have sold for far, far more.
Bert is the premier Winchester researcher today and a wealth of knowledge. You should listen to him, he has a lot one can learn from his vast knowledge base. I sure have learned a lot from him over the years!
Unfortunately, your response is typical of a newbie, convinced he got a steal, when, in actuality, he overpaid for a rifle with “problems”. And he refuses to listen to experts with decades of knowledge.
It’s very difficult to be a rookie and strike gold.
Mr cys it is difficult being a moron with a typwriter isn’t it? who the fuk are you calling me a “rookie”? asshole Snobby as moron meet up somewhere? we’ll see how big yer mout is?/. firstly every carving is lightly different. because each is carved individually they have a stock patrers but the carver’s whim comes forst. It’s called “low relief carving, ” not intended to have the depth, you suggest is “wrong” Bert also claims vGeore Madis is “wrong”i have yet to ee his books on the 1894, He is this current crop of ” forum expert here “, as as mosyt of the real experts have left because the moronic drivel guys like you post in response…i have a lot of years experience ib this business… you’re a snide asshole, that knows shit about carving….
Ralph,
After reading this post, your rights to participate on this website are suspended until I receive a sincere written apology from you.
Bert – WACA Admin
Where are the moderators here? With all the nasty/vulgar insults, someone sure deserves to be booted!
November 7, 2015
Offline
Ralph, most of us strive to be gentlemen on this forum. We’re also here to try to learn something about the Winchesters we love. You don’t seem interested in either endeavor. We’ve all made mistakes but that’s how we learn. I prefer to learn by reading the opinions of the dozens of learned folks who hang out here as opposed to the keyboard experts who hang out on some other forums.
Happy Trails!
Mike
Ralph Fitzwater said
Bert. The assembly numbers on the lower tang match the buttstock. with no indication on XXX fancy wood but CF for Carved finish- anyone could order any stock checkering they wanted, by your post above, and example , what you say simply isn’t true. there’s no “special rules” for special orders if the customer pays for it.. The bore diameret of .32-40 and .32 Special are both .321, and by shortening the thread stub you can in fact rechamber a .32 Special to .32-40…… I expected the naysayers here to poo poo the quality rifle i present because that’s seems to be the forrum procedure. .The full Winchester name is there and the .24″ barrel divided at the nosecap. Winchester can turn down barrel when needed, none of the pundits here can offer anything but shit as responses, why i don’t bother with the handful or repeatin jackass opinions.and won’t anymore. The checkering is factory, the rifle special order….with that many Special orders on the same riflw i tend to think you’all have yyer heads up yer asses. with your opinions…
Ralph,
You are entitled to believe whatever it is that you want to, but you are NOT entitled to insult others with a childish rant. Accordingly, you are completely out of line with you posts above, and I will not allow you to continue vulgarly insulting people who have differing learned views (after you specifically posted asking for opinions). I have put your WACA website access in a 90-day timeout (suspension). Keep it civil, or it will be permanent!!
Bert – WACA Admin
WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—
I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work. Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time. Lots of things are “Type D” in the world. Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked! Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition
This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving. I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.
mrcvs said
Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work. Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time. Lots of things are “Type D” in the world. Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked! Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition
This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving. I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.
Great job finding those rifles… interestingly that they are all Model 1886s, and that 2 of the 3 are engraved. The non engraved Winchesters with carved stocks are interesting, and they are apparently much rarer than those that were both engraved and carved.
Bert
WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
Bert H. said
mrcvs said
Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—
I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work. Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time. Lots of things are “Type D” in the world. Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked! Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition
This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving. I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.
Great job finding those rifles… interestingly that they are all Model 1886s, and that 2 of the 3 are engraved. The non engraved Winchesters with carved stocks are interesting, and they are apparently much rarer than those that were both engraved and carved.
Bert
Your observations are the same as mine. I don’t think I’ve seen this Type D checkering on a Winchester other than a Model 1886 rifle. It seems unlikely on the Model 1873 and 1876 rifles and their predecessors and the Model 1892 and rifles subsequent to it, except I wouldn’t be surprised if one or more Model 1894 rifles turned up with Type D checkering. However, this style seems to be mostly or exclusively unique to the Model 1886 rifle.
I believe I bid on that rifle offered at Poulin’s December 2020 but was the underdog. For what it hammered at, IIRC, wasn’t a terrible price and I should have been more aggressive in pursuing it, in hindsight.
There was one that sold at Poulins last auction. Very similar to the one Mrcvs listed from 2020 auction. thought it was same but serial numbers are different. I was very very interested in the one that just sold but couldn’t hang on in the bidding. Finally sold at $19000 with the juice.
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