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carved stocks
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November 12, 2023 - 3:42 pm
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 The  rareity  of  the carving  pattern D to copy,in  the first place,  adds  to why  it’s  genuine. How many examples  have you  physiclly  examined Bert? none? my guess. So  your  claim  it”not factory” is  really  moronic. “Talking  thru  yer hat..”      Leroy Mertz  had an 1886  with  this pattern D  he sold  for 250K  , on his  website  to compare to, it matches  perfectly.     the  one  phpto of  the right  panel , on mine,   shows  the delicate crosshatching, around  the oak leaf  perfectly. From pictures or Winchester’s ,Turnbull’s  cataloge ,  a carver could  not  duplicate  ,what  the photos , engravings  don’t show.. QED.  My  opinion  is it was an employee  gun,   maybe  tool room or custom shop employee, foreman,  high enuf up in management  to build  order it.. The carved  stocks  had  to have  a few on hand  ,for orders, in different  grades of  wood,  as  the oil stocks  for carving are seperate  from standard  stocks,  the oil stocks  were soaked in turps  & oil  for months , especially  for fine checkering,  as  plain  wood  torn at  grain   with fine  checkering. As a production facility the Oak leaf pattern D  was a popular choice, the plain wood  is much  nicer  to carve and shows  the pattern well, as fancy wood  distracts  from  th  detail. outside  Exhibition grade  guns, carved  stocks  were “on hand” to some  degree.     i see a well balanced  factory short rifle..2/3  mag, 24″ barrel. Don’t care what  you guys  think anymore… 

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November 12, 2023 - 4:10 pm
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I’m sure Doug Turnbull  has  duplicated  this pattern  for  lots  of money  on  highly  engraved  rifles,  i  have   the cataloge somewhere  he  put out   a while ago.  “i doubt  anyone  would  varnish  it  in as purchased..as  you can see in  the photos. This  was GB item a few wweks ago, and  went  for  1426.00, cost  1560.00  by  the time  i NICS checked.  9;30  o Sunday night, either  all you guys  were sleeping  or  watching somethint else. Any idea how  many  gun auctions  end Sundays  at 9;30?  You can  make all  the stupid  remarks  you want, i got a great rifle20231029_13072023405.jpgImage Enlarger20231029_13080623404.jpgImage Enlarger, at a great price….  there  were  26 bidders  prior  to  the  15 minute   time,  it was at 1250.00  i bid  20 minutes  before.the end , i had expected  it  to go  to 2500.00 but after my bid. no one  else bid..BTW   barrels  were 26″ & 22″  24″ was Special order.. I bought a half mag  1915    ,1894  in .32-40  Allentown PA  that Sunday, never  expecting  to win  this…

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November 12, 2023 - 5:07 pm
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If you look at this graphic, although an artist’s depiction, the Style D carving has much more depth than yours does.  I couldn’t find an actual rifle in the Style D pattern to attach to this post, but the ones I’ve seen demonstrate much more artistic talent than the amateur nature of the rifle you own.  Also, the finish of your rifle is atypical of that from the same era as yours is too glossy.  Lastly, if there were 26 bidders on this rifle and it sold that cheaply, the other 25 bidders thought it was neat to own at a reasonable price, but none were convinced that it was factory work.  If they were convinced it was, it would have sold for far, far more.

Bert is the premier Winchester researcher today and a wealth of knowledge.  You should listen to him, he has a lot one can learn from his vast knowledge base.  I sure have learned a lot from him over the years!

Unfortunately, your response is typical of a newbie, convinced he got a steal, when, in actuality, he overpaid for a rifle with “problems”.  And he refuses to listen to experts with decades of knowledge.

It’s very difficult to be a rookie and strike gold.

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November 12, 2023 - 8:23 pm
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Mr cys  it  is  difficult  being a moron with a typwriter  isn’t  it? who  the fuk are  you calling  me a “rookie”?  asshole Snobby as moron meet up somewhere? we’ll see how  big yer mout is?/. firstly   every  carving  is  lightly different.  because  each is carved individually  they  have a stock patrers  but  the carver’s  whim  comes  forst.   It’s called  “low  relief  carving, ” not  intended to have  the  depth, you suggest  is  “wrong” Bert  also claims vGeore Madis  is “wrong”i have yet  to ee his books on the 1894,  He is  this current crop of ” forum expert here “, as  as mosyt of  the real experts have  left  because  the moronic  drivel guys like  you post in response…i have a lot of  years  experience  ib  this business… you’re a snide asshole, that knows shit about carving….

Ralph,

After reading this post, your rights to participate on this website are suspended until I receive a sincere written apology from you.

Bert – WACA Admin

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November 12, 2023 - 11:01 pm
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Where are the moderators here?  With all the nasty/vulgar insults, someone sure deserves to be booted!  

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November 12, 2023 - 11:23 pm
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Ralph, most of us strive to be gentlemen on this forum. We’re also here to try to learn something about the Winchesters we love. You don’t seem interested in either endeavor. We’ve all made mistakes but that’s how we learn. I prefer to learn by reading the opinions of the dozens of learned folks who hang out here as opposed to the keyboard experts who hang out on some other forums.

Happy Trails!

 

Mike

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November 12, 2023 - 11:38 pm
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Ralph Fitzwater said
Bert. The assembly  numbers    on  the lower tang  match  the buttstock. with  no indication  on XXX   fancy wood  but CF  for Carved finish-  anyone  could  order  any  stock  checkering  they  wanted, by  your  post  above, and  example  , what  you say    simply  isn’t  true. there’s  no “special  rules”  for special orders  if  the customer  pays  for it..  The bore diameret  of .32-40  and  .32 Special  are both  .321, and  by  shortening  the  thread stub you can  in fact  rechamber a .32 Special  to .32-40……  I expected  the naysayers  here  to poo poo the quality  rifle  i present because  that’s seems  to be  the forrum procedure.  .The full Winchester name  is  there and  the .24″ barrel  divided at  the nosecap. Winchester  can  turn down  barrel  when  needed,   none  of    the  pundits  here can offer anything  but shit as  responses,  why  i don’t bother   with  the handful or  repeatin jackass opinions.and won’t anymore. The checkering is factory,  the rifle  special order….with  that many Special orders on  the same  riflw  i tend to think   you’all have yyer heads up yer asses. with  your opinions…

  

Ralph,

You are entitled to believe whatever it is that you want to, but you are NOT entitled to insult others with a childish rant.  Accordingly, you are completely out of line with you posts above, and I will not allow you to continue vulgarly insulting people who have differing learned views (after you specifically posted asking for opinions).  I have put your WACA website access in a 90-day timeout (suspension).  Keep it civil, or it will be permanent!!

Bert – WACA Admin

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November 13, 2023 - 8:18 am
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Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—

I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work.  Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time.  Lots of things are “Type D” in the world.  Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked!  Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition

https://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2312-fantastic-factory-engraved-gold-inlaid-winchester-model-1886-light-weight-rifle/

https://www.poulinauctions.com/winchester-rare-special-order-carved-1886-extra-lightweight-lever-action-rifle/

This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving.  I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.

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November 13, 2023 - 8:30 am
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mrcvs said
Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—

I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work.  Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time.  Lots of things are “Type D” in the world.  Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked!  Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition

https://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2312-fantastic-factory-engraved-gold-inlaid-winchester-model-1886-light-weight-rifle/

https://www.poulinauctions.com/winchester-rare-special-order-carved-1886-extra-lightweight-lever-action-rifle/

This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving.  I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.

  

Great job finding those rifles… interestingly that they are all Model 1886s, and that 2 of the 3 are engraved.  The non engraved Winchesters with carved stocks are interesting, and they are apparently much rarer than those that were both engraved and carved.

Bert

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November 13, 2023 - 12:11 pm
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Bert H. said

mrcvs said

Type D checkering, Model 1886 rifles, factory original—

I had wanted to post at least a few examples of Type D checkering patterns, as manufactured, with quality photographs that accurately depict the skill of the carver and the finish of the rifle, as known examples can be used not necessarily to determine if an unknown example is factory original work, as there are talented individuals who can replicate this work, but to rule out work that clearly is not factory work.  Yesterday’s search using “Type D” Winchester rifle and other terms proved to be a waste of time.  Lots of things are “Type D” in the world.  Today, I woke up and thought to try “Winchester 1886 oak leaf” and that worked!  Several great examples, including one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art:

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/788202

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/71/1025/winchester-1886-gold-inlaid-exhibition

https://www.merzantiques.com/product/w2312-fantastic-factory-engraved-gold-inlaid-winchester-model-1886-light-weight-rifle/

https://www.poulinauctions.com/winchester-rare-special-order-carved-1886-extra-lightweight-lever-action-rifle/

This one from Poulin’s WAS the one I was thinking of a few days ago as an example of Type D checkering without engraving.  I had thought it was in .33 WCF, but, better yet, it’s in .45-70.

  

Great job finding those rifles… interestingly that they are all Model 1886s, and that 2 of the 3 are engraved.  The non engraved Winchesters with carved stocks are interesting, and they are apparently much rarer than those that were both engraved and carved.

Bert  

Your observations are the same as mine.  I don’t think I’ve seen this Type D checkering on a Winchester other than a Model 1886 rifle.  It seems unlikely on the Model 1873 and 1876 rifles and their predecessors and the Model 1892 and rifles subsequent to it, except I wouldn’t be surprised if one or more Model 1894 rifles turned up with Type D checkering.  However, this style seems to be mostly or exclusively unique to the Model 1886 rifle.

I believe I bid on that rifle offered at Poulin’s December 2020 but was the underdog.  For what it hammered at, IIRC, wasn’t a terrible price and I should have been more aggressive in pursuing it, in hindsight.

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November 19, 2023 - 2:50 pm
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There was one that sold at Poulins last auction. Very similar to the one Mrcvs listed from 2020 auction. thought it was same but serial numbers are different. I was very very interested in the one that just sold but couldn’t hang on in the bidding. Finally sold at $19000 with the juice.  

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