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February 11, 2023 - 4:51 pm
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steve004 said

  This method established it was not just a piece of scrap steel.  In fact, it established it was a Winchester slide action hammer .22… but as far as amount of finish, original finish, possible pitting… I wouldn’t think the X-ray would shed light on those factors.  And I’d say those are important factors.  Even if the rifle was never out of the box, things can happen inside a box over the decades (such as the impact of some condensation/moisture).   I realize the novelty of a rifle in an unopened box has some intrigue but I would never be interested.

  

Still no bidders, so this common sense rationale is prevailing thus far.

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/91/viewitem.php?item=4156

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February 11, 2023 - 5:17 pm
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Again, this is ridiculous.  Far more valuable opened than sealed.  

It’s not like a sealed box of 19th Century ammunition.

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February 11, 2023 - 5:45 pm
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deerhunter said

Still no bidders, so this common sense rationale is prevailing thus far.

  

Well, you know, the price does not encourage risk-takers.

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February 11, 2023 - 6:34 pm
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Someone would’ve taken the risk by now if it was a 94. 

 Rick C 

   

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February 11, 2023 - 8:13 pm
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There was an old guy at the Cedar Rapids Iowa gun show years ago, back in the 1980’s, that had a table full of sealed in the box winchesters and he usally had about every model from the 40’s and 50’s. He had them priced about twice what a mint specimen would bring and he would sell 2 or 3 about every show and seemed to never run out, so he must have had a large cache of them! My old gun buddy was a winchester collecter and it about drove him nuts to not take a chance on one! He finally broke down and ponyed up for a sealed 61 from the late 40’s. He took it home and never opened it for over a year and when he did it was in excellent condition except for the stock being awfully dry but no rust and as luck would have it, it was marked LR. Both those old boys are gone now and I think about that deal alot, its only money I sure wish I had bought one too!

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February 11, 2023 - 8:27 pm
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Jay Wilson said
There was an old guy at the Cedar Rapids Iowa gun show years ago, back in the 1980’s, that had a table full of sealed in the box winchesters and he usally had about every model from the 40’s and 50’s. He had them priced about twice what a mint specimen would bring and he would sell 2 or 3 about every show and seemed to never run out, so he must have had a large cache of them! My old gun buddy was a winchester collecter and it about drove him nuts to not take a chance on one! He finally broke down and ponyed up for a sealed 61 from the late 40’s. He took it home and never opened it for over a year and when he did it was in excellent condition except for the stock being awfully dry but no rust and as luck would have it, it was marked LR. Both those old boys are gone now and I think about that deal alot, its only money I sure wish I had bought one too!

  

At twice the price of a mint gun without the box, I’d certainly have passed; surely the box can’t be worth as much as the gun itself.

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February 11, 2023 - 8:28 pm
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Jay Wilson said
There was an old guy at the Cedar Rapids Iowa gun show years ago, back in the 1980’s, that had a table full of sealed in the box winchesters and he usally had about every model from the 40’s and 50’s. He had them priced about twice what a mint specimen would bring and he would sell 2 or 3 about every show and seemed to never run out, so he must have had a large cache of them! My old gun buddy was a winchester collecter and it about drove him nuts to not take a chance on one! He finally broke down and ponyed up for a sealed 61 from the late 40’s. He took it home and never opened it for over a year and when he did it was in excellent condition except for the stock being awfully dry but no rust and as luck would have it, it was marked LR. Both those old boys are gone now and I think about that deal alot, its only money I sure wish I had bought one too!

  

Thanks for sharing Jay. Awesome!

 Rick C 

   

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February 11, 2023 - 8:59 pm
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The example of the x-ray at the Veterinarian’s office reminds me of an examples I heard about years ago. The guy worked in the medical field or had a spouse in the medical field.  They were able to access x-ray equipment at their work site and take a peak at a receiver to look for hidden tap holes.  They found them!

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February 11, 2023 - 10:39 pm
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Old cardboard can be very expensive. 

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February 11, 2023 - 11:06 pm
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seewin said
Model 70 22 Hornet Pre War Carbine receiver. Look closely. Absolutely not visible to the naked eye.

Steve

  

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February 12, 2023 - 2:39 pm
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Folks,  Just have an anecdote with some bearing.  NOT knowledgeable enough to know if it is truly correct tho.   MANY years ago in Tucson, at Harry Lawson’s gun shop, he showed me an old Winchester model 1876 he was to bring back to “perfect, but old”.  It had a lot of pitting.  Harry was slowly filling the pits by welding with a similar source of metal as to the degree of carbon, etc, making up the steel.  Why be so particular?  He wanted to be able to X-ray the finished piece and not have any detectable differences between the repaired spots and the main background.  His claim was the usual sources for donor metal, such as welding rod, would show.  Cost was no object, etc.  Where did he get such donor metal to melt into the pits?  No idea.  Was his claim correct?  Again, no idea.  But its intriguing.  At least to me.  Don’t ask for the serial number, either, as he did not let me see that.  Tim

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February 12, 2023 - 2:51 pm
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tim tomlinson said
Folks,  Just have an anecdote with some bearing.  NOT knowledgeable enough to know if it is truly correct tho.   MANY years ago in Tucson, at Harry Lawson’s gun shop, he showed me an old Winchester model 1876 he was to bring back to “perfect, but old”.  It had a lot of pitting.  Harry was slowly filling the pits by welding with a similar source of metal as to the degree of carbon, etc, making up the steel.  Why be so particular?  He wanted to be able to X-ray the finished piece and not have any detectable differences between the repaired spots and the main background.  His claim was the usual sources for donor metal, such as welding rod, would show.  Cost was no object, etc.  Where did he get such donor metal to melt into the pits?  No idea.  Was his claim correct?  Again, no idea.  But its intriguing.  At least to me.  Don’t ask for the serial number, either, as he did not let me see that.  Tim

  

Even if it’s possible to make an undetectable weld in this way (I’m skeptical), wouldn’t it be quite obvious that the gun had been completely refinished?  If so, whether or not welding repairs had been done would seem moot.

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March 20, 2023 - 2:28 pm
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twobit said

tionesta1 said

This and another one are on Don Groves (The Winchester Grove) web sight for $6,500 each.  I’m not sure they are authentic or not, but on every other boxed 61 end label of this era that I’ve seen, the word Trademark is under Winchester.  I sure wouldn’t pay $6,500 for a standard model 61 in the box just because it was never opened.  So what happens when a new owner opens it, the worth drops by $3,000?

  

My bet is that there is a pretty good reserve on the item and if it is not met it will be back at Grove’s.  I have seen numerous guns go from Grove to auction to Grove to auction to Grove…!

Michael

  

Well it seems that my prediction was spot on.  The “box” (and whatever might be inside) is back at Grove’s site for $6500 again!  The high bid at Ward’s was $5024.  https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/91/viewitem.php?item=4156  And the new box for sale listing in Guns International.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-61/winchester-model-61-in-unopened-box.cfm?gun_id=102252518

Michael

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March 20, 2023 - 4:12 pm
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Apparently Don thinks someone will eventually pay what he’s asking and he’s patient enough to wait. In today’s market I’m betting he’s right.

 

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March 20, 2023 - 5:04 pm
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$5024 is fairly respectable for a box.  Presumably a correct firearm within, but condition unknown.

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March 21, 2023 - 12:29 am
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mrcvs said
$5024 is fairly respectable for a box.  Presumably a correct firearm within, but condition unknown.

  

Lot more than I’d give for it, I can’t see it being worth more than $2,000 but I’m obviously not the buyer Don is looking for. 

 

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March 21, 2023 - 12:34 am
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TXGunNut said

I’m obviously not the buyer Don is looking for.

So they don’t call you Fat Cat Mike out at the range?  Or in your favorite saloon?

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March 21, 2023 - 12:44 am
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clarence said

TXGunNut said

I’m obviously not the buyer Don is looking for.

So they don’t call you Fat Cat Mike out at the range?  Or in your favorite saloon?

  

 No, lol. I am fat and at one time I’d answer to “Sarge” but these days I’m the “Ice Man” even to people who don’t know me.

 

Mike

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March 21, 2023 - 1:06 am
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Well it seems that my prediction was spot on.  The “box” (and whatever might be inside) is back at Grove’s site for $6500 again!  The high bid at Ward’s was $5024.  https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/91/viewitem.php?item=4156  And the new box for sale listing in Guns International.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-61/winchester-model-61-in-unopened-box.cfm?gun_id=102252518

Michael

  

Michael

These are not the same gun. He had two of them and the one on his website is not the one that he listed with Wards. So, it would appear that maybe he did get one of the M61 mystery boxes sold. Glad it wasn’t me for that price. 

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March 21, 2023 - 10:33 am
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pdog72 said

Well it seems that my prediction was spot on.  The “box” (and whatever might be inside) is back at Grove’s site for $6500 again!  The high bid at Ward’s was $5024.  https://www.wardscollectibles.com/auction/91/viewitem.php?item=4156  And the new box for sale listing in Guns International.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-61/winchester-model-61-in-unopened-box.cfm?gun_id=102252518

Michael

  

Michael

These are not the same gun. He had two of them and the one on his website is not the one that he listed with Wards. So, it would appear that maybe he did get one of the M61 mystery boxes sold. Glad it wasn’t me for that price. 

  

Well dang!  You are absolutely correct on that.  I retract my sarcasm.  But I would still ask a question of just how does a cardboard box stay in that good of shape for 60 years??  And why are there two yellow labels on the current for sale box?

Michael

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