Kirk Durston said
I am very much looking forward to Bert’s next article on the 33 WCF. Thank you, Bert, for the truly outstanding articles you have been producing. I am looking forward to the day when all those articles are assembled into one fantastic book.
The article is actually a product of the research survey that Mark Yecha and I have been working for the past 7-years documenting all of the late production Model 1886s in the 146000+ serial number range. It just so happens that approximately 55% of the late production Model 1886s were 33 WCFs.
That compilation book is high on my list of things to do.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Henry Mero said
I got this one a little while ago, I thought it was reasonable plus I liked it. I don’t believe the extra barrel letters but it’s there and matches wellI got the wrong tag on the gun , the Proper ser# is139158, Nov. 1 , 1906, 45-70 , 22″, extra light, takedown, plain, pistol grip, checkered, 1/2 mag, shotgun, rubber butt order#74772
Henry – I like it too. Neat. I’ve got that same Marbles Flexible Base tang sight on a Win. M1894 and a Marlin M1893. I’ve never had one on a M1886 – and off the top of my head – can’t recall seeing on on an ’86 before. But, the whole rig is very cool.
Admittedly, I created this thread, but I inspired myself to fire an ELW Model 1886 rifle I have, manufactured in 1909, shotgun butt, not a takedown, half magazine. I had fired it enough in the past to actually take 8 deer with it, but I can only find a box of 20 loaded rounds for it. I thought I had at least 100 .33 WCF brass, but maybe I do have it but I can’t find it.
Of course, I could always create .33 WCF from .45-70 brass, but I try to avoid that as the round is still stamped .45-70. However, if there is a reformed case that is significantly different than its parent case, .33 WCF would be it.
Any sources for .33 WCF brass as there doesn’t seem to be any out there from a legitimate source? The recent thread as to how wealthy Larry Potterfield is made me wonder how wealthy he actually might be if he actually had stuff to sell.
mrcvs said
Admittedly, I created this thread, but I inspired myself to fire an ELW Model 1886 rifle I have, manufactured in 1909, shotgun butt, not a takedown, half magazine. I had fired it enough in the past to actually take 8 deer with it, but I can only find a box of 20 loaded rounds for it. I thought I had at least 100 .33 WCF brass, but maybe I do have it but I can’t find it.Of course, I could always create .33 WCF from .45-70 brass, but I try to avoid that as the round is still stamped .45-70. However, if there is a reformed case that is significantly different than its parent case, .33 WCF would be it.
Any sources for .33 WCF brass as there doesn’t seem to be any out there from a legitimate source? The recent thread as to how wealthy Larry Potterfield is made me wonder how wealthy he actually might be if he actually had stuff to sell.
Is this a 22 inch barreled .33? I ask as you referred to it as an ELW.
Very cool that you have taken 8 deer with it. As Tom (oldcrankyyankee) recently found out, the .33 works great on deer!
Thank You Steve, I also have a ’94 with a Marbles flexible tang sight , with the box, I posted it a while back, and a Marbles flexible tang sight for a Marlin that I do not have a gun for
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
steve004 said
mrcvs said
Admittedly, I created this thread, but I inspired myself to fire an ELW Model 1886 rifle I have, manufactured in 1909, shotgun butt, not a takedown, half magazine. I had fired it enough in the past to actually take 8 deer with it, but I can only find a box of 20 loaded rounds for it. I thought I had at least 100 .33 WCF brass, but maybe I do have it but I can’t find it.
Of course, I could always create .33 WCF from .45-70 brass, but I try to avoid that as the round is still stamped .45-70. However, if there is a reformed case that is significantly different than its parent case, .33 WCF would be it.
Any sources for .33 WCF brass as there doesn’t seem to be any out there from a legitimate source? The recent thread as to how wealthy Larry Potterfield is made me wonder how wealthy he actually might be if he actually had stuff to sell.
Is this a 22 inch barreled .33? I ask as you referred to it as an ELW.
Very cool that you have taken 8 deer with it. As Tom (oldcrankyyankee) recently found out, the .33 works great on deer!
This was the first Model 1886 rifle I ever purchased, back in 1987. It does have a 24” barrel. It’s obvious when situated next to an ELW rifle I have with a 22” barrel, this one being in .45-70.
I was under the impression that ELW rifles in .45-70 had 22” barrels and those in .33 WCF had 24” barrels, but this may not be based in fact but based on the fact I own one that is in .45-70 with a 22” barrel and one in .33 WCF with a 24” barrel.
My mental impression of what the typical, by far and away, .33 WCF rifle, is one with a shotgun butt, 24” barrel, and half magazine. Except for the fact I looked at the letter today as it was the easiest way to find barrel length on it, and that wasn’t listed, but the magazine length was listed as 2/3. In all the 36 years I’ve owned this rifle, I had thought it was 24” with a half magazine.
Since the most common configurations show up most commonly, I assumed this was the most common configuration in .33 WCF.
Bert, how common is a round barreled rifle in .33 WCF with a shotgun butt, 24” barrel, and 2/3 magazine? My guess is fairly common.
Here’s the factory letter from 1989, being the rifke it is, the serial number is actually 145740A:
Back to the subject matter rifle of this thread, and what a BARGAIN it really was. It’s got significant condition and yet you don’t have to play the “is it refinished or not?” game with regards to near perfect examples. And you can fire it from time to time. I really was asleep to have missed this one at that price!
Henry Mero said
Well definitely all the 45-70’s weren’t 22″ barrels![]()
I wasn’t implying that. I was implying that since the most common rifles turn up most commonly, and this rifle was obtained when my livelihood in high school was little more than washing dishes and mowing lawns, that it was most likely the most common configuration. This being in reference to my .33 WCF.
Now, the next rifle I purchased was in .45-70. It has significant condition, although the .33 WCF is still better than most out there. This .45-70 is a takedown with pistol grip, uncheckered, 1/2 magazine, and shotgun butt. My assumption about this rifle was it is standard with the exception of the pistol grip and takedown feature.
If I have time around the Holidays, I’ll take photographs of both and create threads for each.
Bert H. said
Henry Mero said
All (100%) of the Model 1886 ELW rifles were made with a 22-inch barrel (regardless of the caliber). Winchester also manufactured standard 45-70 rifles with 24″ and 26″ barrel lengths.
Bert
Once again, I learn something new here. So my 24” .33 WCF CANNOT be ELW as it has a 24” barrel instead of a 22” one? Also, the 2/3 magazine would preclude it from being ELW? Simply because a longer barrel and magazine tube is additional weight?
Ian,
A 2/3 length magazine on a Model 1886 is actually a relatively “uncommon” length.
Thus far, I have 1,160 33 WCF rifles with documented magazine lengths as follows;
Magazine Length | Quatity | Percentage % |
½ | 828 | 71.4% |
⅔ | 29 | 2.5% |
¾ | 6 | 0.5% |
Full | 297 | 25.6% |
Total | 1,160 | 100.00% |
As you can see, the ½ magazine length was by a large margin the most common, followed by the Full magazine length. The ⅔ magazine length was a relatively uncommon length, and the ¾ magazine was relatively a rarely ordered length.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mrcvs said
Bert H. said
Henry Mero said
All (100%) of the Model 1886 ELW rifles were made with a 22-inch barrel (regardless of the caliber). Winchester also manufactured standard 45-70 rifles with 24″ and 26″ barrel lengths.
Bert
Once again, I learn something new here. So my 24” .33 WCF CANNOT be ELW as it has a 24” barrel instead of a 22” one? Also, the 2/3 magazine would preclude it from being ELW? Simply because a longer barrel and magazine tube is additional weight?
The magazine tube length has nothing to do with its status as an ELW. The defining feature of the ELW is the 22-inch barrel coupled with a hard rubber shotgun butt and a counterbored hole in the butt stock. So Yes, your 33 WCF with its 24-inch barrel is not an ELW rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Ian,A 2/3 length magazine on any Model 1886 is actually a relatively “uncommon” length.
Thus far, I have 1,160 33 WCF rifles with documented magazine lengths as follows;
Magazine Length Quatity Percentage % ½ 828 71.4% ⅔ 29 2.5% ¾ 6 0.5% Full 297 25.6% Total 1,160 100.00% As you can see, the ½ magazine length was by a large margin the most common, followed by the Full magazine length. The ⅔ magazine length was a relatively uncommon length, and the ¾ magazine was relatively a rarely ordered length.
Bert
Thank you Bert! If you have information on serial no 145740A I gave you previously, please correct the 1/2 magazine to 2/3 magazine. I would have given you the information off the top of my head and never noticed it was 2/3 until today. If it’s listed as 2/3 in your survey already, I got it off the letter and never paid attention that it was a 2/3 magazine length.
oldcrankyyankee said
I’m sure I am about to get educated here, but it has been my understanding that the term extra light weight (ELW) is a moniker that collectors put on the 22″ versions.
Nope… Winchester specifically catalogued and used the term “Extra Light Weight Rifle”.
The term that gets used a lot (incorrectly) is “Light Weight” rifle. A fair number of Winchester collectors mistakenly refer to the 33 WCF rifles as a “light weight”. Again, I discuss this briefly in the upcoming WACA Collector article. I did not delve into the detailed specifics for the 33 WCF rifle configurations (as I have done here in this topic string). I can (and will) continue to add survey details to this topic where possible.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
I’m sure I am about to get educated here, but it has been my understanding that the term extra light weight (ELW) is a moniker that collectors put on the 22″ versions.
Nope… Winchester specifically catalogued and used the term “Extra Light Weight Rifle”.
The term that gets used a lot (incorrectly) is “Light Weight” rifle. A fair number of Winchester collectors mistakenly refer to the 33 WCF rifles as a “light weight”. Again, I discuss this briefly in the upcoming WACA Collector article. I did not delve into the detailed specifics for the 33 WCF rifle configurations (as I have done here in this topic string). I can (and will) continue to add survey details to this topic where possible.
Bert
Bert – so was a 24 inch barreled .33 WCF every cataloged as an, “Extra Light Weight Rifle”?
steve004 said
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
I’m sure I am about to get educated here, but it has been my understanding that the term extra light weight (ELW) is a moniker that collectors put on the 22″ versions.
Nope… Winchester specifically catalogued and used the term “Extra Light Weight Rifle”.
The term that gets used a lot (incorrectly) is “Light Weight” rifle. A fair number of Winchester collectors mistakenly refer to the 33 WCF rifles as a “light weight”. Again, I discuss this briefly in the upcoming WACA Collector article. I did not delve into the detailed specifics for the 33 WCF rifle configurations (as I have done here in this topic string). I can (and will) continue to add survey details to this topic where possible.
Bert
Bert – so was a 24 inch barreled .33 WCF every cataloged as an, “Extra Light Weight Rifle”?
No, it was not. The it was always catalogued as “.33 Caliber Winchester Smokeless Model 1886.”
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
For all of you who own a Model 1886 chambered for the 33 W.C.F. cartridge, please send me a PM, email, or post it here in this topic string. I would like to document as many of them as possible (to update the survey). Currently I have a total of 1,184 of them documented the survey, but I do not have 100% of the details for all of them. My hope is to add new serial numbers and to fill in the blanks for the small number of them that have incomplete information.
If anyone would like any specific production statistics, I can most likely create an associated table using the Excel spreadsheet that I created to document (survey) the subject guns.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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