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Winchester Model 1984 circa 1919
June 30, 2013
11:40 am
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need a little help with id on this rifle. rifle appears to be original. no clue to who engraved it or when it was done. I am working on shrinking pictures.

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June 30, 2013
5:31 pm
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If you could post some additional photos of the engraving on the rifle, any distinguishing markings, some photos of the wood carving, serial, etc. there are a few folks that contribute on this site that could possibly give you a little more information on your rifle. Some nice looking engraving and carved wood stocks on the rifle from what I can see.

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

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June 30, 2013
5:44 pm
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serial #879xxx. not any other markings. here are some more pictures.

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June 30, 2013
5:51 pm
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[Image Can Not Be Found]

June 30, 2013
6:04 pm
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this is all the pictures that I have. as you can see, I have problems with sending pictures. just the best I have. thanks, don

June 30, 2013
6:39 pm
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Aylmer, Quebec, Canada
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Very nice 1894 Don. There are a few folks who can likely chime in regarding the originality of the rifle. Beautiful carving on the wood. Looks similar to Winchester's "B" style carving.

Matt

June 30, 2013
10:56 pm
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Kingston, WA
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It looks very good to me, but I am not the expert in this particular field. Somebody needs to jostle or poke Pauline in the ribs and get her erudite opinion Laugh .

Bert

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July 1, 2013
9:08 am
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Lorenzo santamaria from pauline stated that the gun was not factory done and looked refinished. down right rudite if fact. he had no idea as to engraver. seemed calloused and arrogant to me.

July 1, 2013
10:39 am
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I also thought about a refinish. Only because I can't see any sign of case color on the hammer or lever. Good looking gun, but I can't help with when or who engraved it.

July 1, 2013
10:49 am
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wfr.guns said
Lorenzo santamaria from pauline stated that the gun was not factory done and looked refinished. down right rudite if fact. he had no idea as to engraver. seemed calloused and arrogant to me.

"Lorenzo" is Pauline Muerrle. If she told you that it is not factory original, that is where I would put my money.

Bert

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July 1, 2013
10:52 am
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Bert wrote:

"Lorenzo" is Pauline Muerrle. If she told you that it is not factory original, that is where I would put my money.

Or not put your money depending on the point of view and how much you value your money. Condition and configuration of money has little to do with value. If it's green it's all the same.

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

July 1, 2013
6:43 pm
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I didn't bother responding to this post because I had already spoken to this guy. I told him that "It was not done by anyone at the factory. It appeared to be refinished. Sorry I don't know who engraved it." If he perceived this as being rude, well that is his problem. He is typical of the guy who asks a million opinions until he hears what he wants to. In the meantime I emailed him and asked him what was so rude about my reply. His response: "You'll get no apology from me." Well he thinks that I am rude so I figured I better give him a rude response so I did. Oh well.

July 2, 2013
7:30 am
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Pauline,
Personally, I would have told him this Embarassed

July 2, 2013
7:54 am
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Excellent!!! LOL.

July 2, 2013
4:42 pm
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Pauline, If I may call you by your first name, will you help us out with a few specifics of the gun and how you determine it is not original? If anyone would know you would, just a few details please! But I would not expect to see any case colors on the hammer or lever at this later date.

July 2, 2013
5:49 pm
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LOVE the YouTube snip!!!!!!!!!

Michael

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Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

July 2, 2013
6:23 pm
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"God is in the Details" as they say.

I haven't discussed this gun with anyone before, including Pauline. But in my humble opinion there are many outstanding factors that point to the why and how the gun pictured is not factory original and most likely not engraved by a factory engraver.

The punch border design looks all wrong. It doesn't continue all the way around the scene. The punch being heart shaped is also odd. Majority of the punch border was never heart-shaped. In fact the only engraver that comes close to using this type pattern punch is Stokes and its obvious he didn't engrave it.

The overall scene itself is not of Winchester pattern. Its close though, Looks like a runner up between a #2 & #3 pattern on the receiver. Again details, the deer don't look correct. Animals can be very hard too do. As is carving patterns in wood. The carving pattern just doesn't look like anything done during the period. Doesn't come close to matching any of the factory patterns.

Granted when the gun was produced plating and case hardening was going by the way side and not used by the factory much, if at all. Even so, majority of the genuine factory engraved guns with this #Type engraving have some sort of Inlay work either gold, silver, or platinum on it somewhere.

Another cause for concern is that this gun, like most 94s is beyond the serial range for obtaining details from the factory ledger. Of the most common things that are going to being faked on a Winchester, is the engraving of it.

Granted I am No "Expert" on the matter, and haven't published any books as of yet. But I wouldn't put my money in that deck of cards.

Sincerely,
Maverick

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July 2, 2013
6:45 pm
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Maverick, you hit a lot of the points that I could make. The stuff you guys probably can't see is because of the pictures he sent. When he emailed me the pics were much closer up. The stuff I noticed right away was the border and other stipling around the scrollwork. There was a big crown raised around all of this stamping which told me it was done much more recently. The shading on the animals is way over done. As Maverick stated earlier it is not any specific pattern but a combo of several. The wood carving is nice but not any Winchester design and not even similar to any pattern of that period.

July 3, 2013
4:19 am
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Those are very good points. I did think the hearts around the border were a bit odd, never seen anything like that in any of the engraving books I have studied, and the deer - though better than I could do, lol - did not look up to snuff for the period, they look like some of the animals you would see on earlier guns, bit less realistic. And the wood is very nice, but again, not like any standard Winchester patterns. Reminded me a bit of one pattern, bit of another. Nice looking rifle though.

Matt

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