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Model 1894, 32/40 listed on GB. Too expensive for my budget, but just curious as to what you members think about this. Almost too good to be true. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=352490144
January 26, 2011
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Once again, I choose to believe that one seller could not possibly have 10 NIB grade guns at one time. Call me a realist if you like.
~Gary~
I agree on this matter of one guy coming up with so many "like new rifles" with there boxes. In 45 years of collecting, I have only found 1 rifle still with the original box and that was back in the early 1970’s.
Paul
It could be possible . . . . up in Minnesota a closed car dealership was found recently to have stored 50 cars that were brand new. One had one mile on the odometer. The owner had just kept putting away brand new cars occasionally and then leaving them in a big barn. All now classics from the 50s and 60s. Amazing. 🙂
For what it is worth…
These Winchesters and boxes are not faked. This seller is selling a collection that was inherited from a collector that collected boxed guns. Some people collect certain models, calibers, etc. This collector collected boxed guns.
Further, look at all the different era boxes. Many of which are the picture boxes. It would be impossible (or at least not financially feasible) to reproduce all the different boxes that are shown. In addition, if the boxes were reproduced, why would one reproduce a model 67 or 69 picture box when a model 61 or 62 picture box would be more profitable? There are simply too many different era and model of boxes that the seller is selling to be reproductions.
I have seen this collection first hand and I can say without a doubt that these boxes are not fakes. There are many boxed guns in this collection.
This is my honest opinion on the matter…for what it is worth.
"Midas the Greek God not Madis the Winchester God"
Interesting. Maybe too many people here are so suspicious they do not know a good thing when they see it.
For my 2 cents worth, the rifle appears spot on and is an excellent example. I can only go by the pics, but that is what it appears to be. Having owned quite a few super high end mint and some super rare Winchesters over the years, I am here to tell you there are a quite a few minty guns still out there. They are just super expensive. Just go to Baltimore, Cody, Tulsa, Vegas or Denver and you will see them.
Don’t judge the high end part of the hobby by what you see on GB. I have friends with million dollar collections and have been in several multi million dollar gun rooms. Trust me when I say these guns are out there! Personally, I prefer super rare guns over fighting for mint examples. Mint and super rare is good too! As far as the wood box goes.. I just don’t know, sorry. Just my 2 cents worth…
Major flag for me is the checkering, I have a pistol grip sporting rifle, a couple years newer, and lists checkering, It is I not H type for the grade of wood. Not a deluxe or fancy wood for that type of checkering. Not proud on top of gun. Just my observation.
Checkering looks like what my 1902 model 1894 takedown deluxe has, or, whats left of it.
I agree on a fancy or a deluxe the checkering is right. The wood is regular grain
floyd58523 said
I agree on a fancy or a deluxe the checkering is right. The wood is regular grain
The gun does letter though as having plain wood and checkering. I have seen – and own a couple – 1894s with plain wood with this same "I style" checkering. You don’t often see this lesser grade of checkering on what most of us call "deluxe" or "fancy" wood, they are generally furnished with "H style" or higher (though I did own one 1894 deluxe with 2X wood and I style checkering).
My only concern with the rifle is the later barrel marking. According to Bob Renneberg’s book this gun sports the "Type 3" barrel address corresponding with guns with serials in the 275,000 through 500,000 range. Seeing the gun had a repair and return in Sept 1905, and according to the PRRs the last 1894 serialized in 1905 was 291,706 (from what I gather from the Red Book – Bert correct me if I am wrong) it seems possible that this R&R saw this barrel put on the gun. I see that the 1/2 mag is not noted in the letter info, maybe that was reworked then as well. Anyway, food for thought and my 2 cents:)
Cheers,
Matt
I’ll let those who are far more knowledgeable than I debate the originality of the rifles. But there is no way the crate for the 1894 is authentic. As others have mentioned, the weathered nail holes in the lid do not correspond to matching nail holes on the sides or on the partition boards. Note also that the tops of the partition boards are weathered yet the bottom of the crate is not. How is that possible if everything is original as represented?
Also, why would a crate builder make the lid and partition boards out of thicker lumber than the sides or ends?? That doesn’t make sense to me.
With all due respect to Midas, the collector that collected boxed Winchesters either got duped badly on this crate, or commissioned the crate built himself to enhance his collection. The previous collector had to know the crate wasn’t authentic, so my guess is with the latter.
I also have grave doubts about the box. It seems to be out of sync with the rifle in the wear and weathering department. To get bleached and weathered like that, it must have been left out in the sun and rain for 20 or 30 years, with the lid open.
No offense to whomever but if you want 10 original boxes with papers. Give me the time and money and I will come up with them. And it probably wouldn’t take a couple weeks of free time to do it in either.
I’ve never seen a box like that before. And don’t believe Winchester would ever ship a gun in that manner. Also the wood used for the box doesn’t look right to me, at all!!!
Why would the inside of such a box be just as well "weathered" as the outside of the box?
In photos 136 and 137 you can see that the center wood holder with the felt on them have old rusty nail holes in them. Why would that be there in an original box? Especially when there is nothing to nail them to?
I could go on, but I’m going to rest my case there.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Who knows? Certainly the crate would show more wear than the gun, over the years it was probably stored outside somewhere, and the gun was better cared for. As for the nails, thickness of wood, etc., if someone was faking them they would make everything look proper as we would expect it. The markings look about right, so someone would have had to know what he was doing. I think a fake crate would have been made better.
I have to agree with wolfbait. The crate most likely was stored outside, hence the weathered wood. Also, if the crate was faked, I think it would have been better constructed. You have to keep in mind, 120 years ago they probably had to use whatever wood/materials that were available. As for the holes Maverick is mentioned, it is hard to say. They look like they could be insect holes to me but it is hard to tell with my computer. Back then, it is not like they could run down to home depot and get a better piece of lumber. Further, the faded Winchester markings sure look like the real deal to me. I do not think that could be faked. Finally, Winchester probably was not making these crates to be precision pieces. The crates would have been made for shipping, thus probably not a whole lot of time spent on the construction. The crate seems legitimate to me. That is my two cents worth.
The bottom part of the box may well be an authentic Winchester crate. Maybe not made for that particular rifle, but a Winchester crate nonetheless. The nail holes and weathering patterns on the lid and partition boards clearly show they were never a part of the original crate and added at a later date. These were made from weathered barn wood and doctored to match the bottom part of the box……of this I have no doubt.
They could have used these crates like they use shipping pallets today. Not the best wood, and left out in the elements. The crate appears to have a lot of worm holes in it. Are the nails correct for the period? LeRoy Merz had an original shpping crate for sale on his web site, not sure if he still has it or not. I really like the looks of the rifle though.
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