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Not for nothing – but how many actual and authentic crates, innards, labels, etc., have any of you guys seen? Does anyone have any definitive information on them? Different models, lengths, configurations, did they crate takedowns down – or up? I know I haven’t seen but a couple – I probably would have difficulty telling a real one from a good fake because how would you know it’s a fake? What would you compare it with? Don’t start with the nails, glue, wood type and all that – I realize a modern made fake should be apparent in that regard, but look at all the variations in the cardboard boxes alone – yikes – imagine the wooden ones.
Those of you who have read my book know how I feel about ridiculous premiums for packaging. Imagine packaging that is largely a mystery and has absolutely no way of being 100% verified.
They would be great props for a General Store diorama in an small museum somewhere.
Now that I think about it – many could have come from old movie prop houses – Hmmmm – never gave that much thought but I do recall Winchester marked items in old westerns from time to time.
Endless possibilities!!!
B
If you zoom in on the 2nd picture down on the left, which is the bottom of the receiver of the Cabelas gun, you see the serial number 246352.
The late 1890 WRF is pretty decent. Maybe $1500 to $1800? So, $1000 to $1200 for what might be a faux box seems like a lot of cash for wood? Maybe offer to buy the gun; let him keep the box…
Bob,
You are absolutely right, it would be a very hard thing to do. I would say its all in the details. I’d start by looking at the paper and what’s printed on it and how its printed on it. As I’m sure you are aware, there are ways to tell if something was printed a long time ago or merely spit out of a modern InkJet printer. This also would go for how the labels are on the wood boxes as well, Paper, painted or otherwise.
I do agree that there wold be many different variations of wooden & cardboard boxes used for shipping by Winchester. But these things just like any other Winchester Item will follow a certain natural progression. If you look at the types of variations of Cartridge boxes for example, you can see how certain details only occurred for certain years or for certain reasons through production. I would imagine it wouldn’t be all the different for the shipping boxes.
I imagine I could go on further but short of writing a book about Winchester Shipping Boxes and telling all the secrets of how to spot a fake, I believe you get my point. Not saying I know all these things either. I also believe some details about certain things truly should remain secretive. For example all of the details on how to spot a real 1 of 1000 are not published any where and rightfully so. I wish I knew half the secrets that George knew about spotting faked or toyed with guns. He regularly testified in court on such things and his hand written letters authenticating guns are invaluable.
All that aside I always shy away from such things as having ‘the original box". And as far as the seller not commenting on his boxes or them merely being part of the auction. I think its dishonest to do so. I’m reminded of a seller my father ran across many years ago. My old man wanted to buy his model 66 but upon examining it the gun he realized the barrel had been swapped with a 73 barrel. Dad still wanted the gun at the very least for parts. Upon confronting the seller about the replaced barrel, the seller’s response was "Well I’ll wait and sell it to someone that doesn’t know any better." Least to say my father didn’t buy the gun from him and anything else for that matter. And I believe this Gunbroker seller has the same type of attitude.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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I think that the seller that has 100% positive feedback could be misleading. If the buyer returns the gun and gets a refund and is satisfied with the outcome he would tend to leave positive feedback.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Would also add that some of things showing up newly discovered generally come about from what others may have observed from the result of a really big hammer price at an auction.
All of these Barn wood crates showing up recently are designed to look like a shipping crate that was advertised on flyers and on the website of a 2004 RIA auction. That "original" crate in the RIA auction is formed and holds the gun in the same manner as the crate pictured in that auction. But when you compare the details there are a lot of differences between that crate and the crates on Gunbroker. And on top of all that I’m not 100% convinced the RIA auctioned crate is a original crate either.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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I agree with ohlode, get the gun leave the cannolies. 
A lot of people like the extras. They display their guns and like the look of how it was when bought new. Turnbull is busy restoring old guns for people who want an example of how the gun looked when new. The guy on ebay selling the repo boxes, hang tags, paperwork, etc. is doing a thriving business, and he states they are repos. People like the unavailable Winchester extras to display with their guns. If originals are virtually unavailable, a nice repo will have to do.
wolfbait said
A lot of people like the extras. They display their guns and like the look of how it was when bought new. Turnbull is busy restoring old guns for people who want an example of how the gun looked when new. The guy on ebay selling the repo boxes, hang tags, paperwork, etc. is doing a thriving business, and he states they are repos. People like the unavailable Winchester extras to display with their guns. If originals are virtually unavailable, a nice repo will have to do.
Yeah but selling a reproduction and not saying it is a reproduction, is pretty shady to say the least. And so is selling a reproduction for what an original cost and not mentioning that either.
Maverick
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Wolfbait,
I agree with your concept – it is sound and should satisfy most.
However, it seems like some members here are fixated on facts that cannot be definitively answered and therefore, rather than going by your reasoning that a nice repro or even a good fake is a fun item to have with a display, they try to make something out of what cannot be proven to be or try their best to convince themselves that it is or isn’t what it seems to be.
If you like it or want it – buy it. If it’s so important that it MUST be authentic and there is NO WAY to prove it – I guess you better pass.
That, I believe, would apply to almost everything.
From old flyer I have laying around.
[Image Can Not Be Found]
I’d speculate that GB seller saw said auction and figured he could easily make a crate just like the one the holds the model 52 rifle in the bottom of the picture. Probably said to himself, Oh I’ve got some old crappy barn wood in the back. I can cut it and it should do nicely and it’ll look old to boot!
Reproductions are great! I have quite a few myself and not just of Winchester related items. They are fun to play with and its nicer to break or blow up your reproduction than the real thing. But when it you boil the fat down, a reproduction is a fake. All these lovely Uberti and a-like reproductions are all basically fake Winchesters. They look and feel and are exact copies of the originals. When you buy them from Uberti you know what you are getting.
When your selling a reproduction of something, I think it goes without saying that you should tell the person buying the item that it is a reproduction. At least that is where my moral compass points.
BOBR94
I would say that anything can be faked but would also add that anything in turn can then be authenticated as being original and there are ways to prove it. I don’t think someone should pass on an item just because a piece of the puzzle isn’t right. But there again you have the issue of a "story gun" to deal with. Or in this instance a story box. 
Sincerely,
Maverick
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maverick said
From old flyer I have laying around.[Image Can Not Be Found]
I’d speculate that GB seller saw said auction and figured he could easily make a crate just like the one the holds the model 52 rifle in the bottom of the picture. Probably said to himself, Oh I’ve got some old crappy barn wood in the back. I can cut it and it should do nicely and it’ll look old to boot!
Reproductions are great! I have quite a few myself and not just of Winchester related items. They are fun to play with and its nicer to break or blow up your reproduction than the real thing. But when it you boil the fat down, a reproduction is a fake. All these lovely Uberti and a-like reproductions are all basically fake Winchesters. They look and feel and are exact copies of the originals. When you buy them from Uberti you know what you are getting.
When your selling a reproduction of something, I think it goes without saying that you should tell the person buying the item that it is a reproduction. At least that is where my moral compass points.
BOBR94
I would say that anything can be faked but would also add that anything in turn can then be authenticated as being original and there are ways to prove it. I don’t think someone should pass on an item just because a piece of the puzzle isn’t right. But there again you have the issue of a "story gun" to deal with. Or in this instance a story box.
Sincerely,
Maverick
I think that not just Winchester crates are being faked, but the real McCoys as well! I mean, when there is money to be had… It just seems like there is too much really nice stuff out there, ever since the days of the internet coming about. Well, probably the old collections which have been created over the last 50 or 75 years are legit, but some of the more recent ones??? What about the Wes Adams collection which was collected over the last 10 yrs or so? When you are tossing that kind of money around and have pros like Turnbull, and others, who can create spectacular Winchesters, it seems to me the Winchester may be created to match the size of the wallet. I am sure much of Wes Adams’ collection was original and legit, but a lot was suspect, too. Just sayin’
That’s it!
I’m out the door, heading into the country to get some old barn wood. 😈
Gene
MRCVS
The Model 52 box in the picture is correct – it is one of the few that I have seen and can say is original – not this particular one , but the one I saw (had) was identical in every way – even the gun was the same configuration.
B
Wow I can’t believe you guys, especially Bert.
These crates are absolutely, positively and unquestionably correct.
But don’t take my word for it. In Ognjen Vladnuts’ 1939 edition of
"The Little Known History of the Winchester Factory" On page 675 it says
I quote:
"…it was suspected but never proven that the Winchester factory was
imbued with an atmosphere that was highly addictive as regards to their product line. It is known that Winchester always, always shipped their
products in way oversized crates. This can only be explained by realizing
that such large crates would trap as much of this vapor as possible".
Further on page 1243 we read "….Winchester was and is an extremely
inovative and frugal company. The factory as we see it today has been expanded many times as the company has grown workman on the sight
have verified that whenever siding was removed it was sent to the shipping department…"
Speculation has it this old wood was indeed saturated with the same vapors as mentioned earlier. This explains the rusty nail holes that don’t
line up with other parts of the boxes.
These crates are a unique piece of history.
Just don’t buy one. There have been rumors of vapor overdoses
by the uninformed.
Happy shooting,
B
My problem with the wooden crate made from weathered barn boards is that I’ve only seen one original Winchester crate first hand and the quality of the crate was much higher than the crude one linked to at the beginning of this post. For example, it had dovetailed corners. Maybe there were other kinds of crates, but the one linked to in this post has end cuts in the top cover boards that are fresh, much cleaner and fresher than the rest of the well weathered boards. (see photo #57). It might be true that original crates were roomy, but it does not logically follow, therefore, that all roomy crates are original. That brief tongue in cheek mention of crates in Vladnut’s book gives one very little to go on with regard to what original crates looked like or how they were constructed. This link here shows what I would expect a crate to look like http://www.winchestercollector.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6149 I’ve not seen this one in real life, but the one I have seen was similar to this one, but much poorer condition.
While I cannot comment on the authenticity of this crate any more than I would attempt to appraise a gun from a photo, two things did strike me. Nowhere did I find a reference to octagon barrels (who said that?), and the writing on the ends of the box in no way resembles anything seen on the original crate pictured in my book – it is just way to neat and way to vague for me to be comfortable saying it’s original. Not even a big red "W"??? Nice display though.
Like Bob, I can’t speak to the authenticity of the Ottawa crate, but, it looks to me more like a crate Winchester would use. If the wooden ammunition crates have neatly dove-tailed ends and sides, why wouldn’t the rifle crates be as nicely made? I just can’t see rough "barn wood" cut up for Winchester crates. And, all the extra nail holes, etc.
BJREBUCK said
Wow I can’t believe you guys, especially Bert.
These crates are absolutely, positively and unquestionably correct.
But don’t take my word for it. In Ognjen Vladnuts’ 1939 edition of
"The Little Known History of the Winchester Factory" On page 675 it says
I quote:
"…it was suspected but never proven that the Winchester factory was
imbued with an atmosphere that was highly addictive as regards to their product line. It is known that Winchester always, always shipped their
products in way oversized crates. This can only be explained by realizing
that such large crates would trap as much of this vapor as possible".
Further on page 1243 we read "….Winchester was and is an extremely
inovative and frugal company. The factory as we see it today has been expanded many times as the company has grown workman on the sight
have verified that whenever siding was removed it was sent to the shipping department…"
Speculation has it this old wood was indeed saturated with the same vapors as mentioned earlier. This explains the rusty nail holes that don’t
line up with other parts of the boxes.
These crates are a unique piece of history.
Just don’t buy one. There have been rumors of vapor overdoses
by the uninformed.
Happy shooting,
B
Why would a company that had its own lands of timber and would give out scrap pieces of burl walnut (that we would prize wood today) as fire wood, need to ripe off siding off its own buildings to make wood shipping crates?
I understand back then no one wasted anything, but still?
I also don’t see how old wood that has been outside exposed to the elements for years would be "saturated with the same vapors". Or why "vapors" would be any concern about anything at all? I guess you’ll will have to elaborate further on the intended magical qualities of said vapors.
Granted I do not have a copy of "The Little Known History of the Winchester Factory", sounds like an interesting read to say the least.
Sincerely,
Maverick
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