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A picture of the chamber end of the barrel may be helpful, too. Note the differences in the extractor cuts on a 43
Gary,
Please send me a digital photo of the barrel markings on your M43.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 26, 2011
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Here is the bbl marking on my M43 218 Bee.
~Gary~
January 26, 2011
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podufa said
“stumbled” ???Thanks I guess
Yea, maybe not the best choice of words. It was meant as a compliment………I sure hadn’t thought of that angle. You made an excellent point.
~Gary~
Wincacher said
Bert H. said
deerhunter said
Guns International has a Model 92 in 218 BEE for sale. Madis has the same gun pictured in his book. Do you think it’s factory original? The font size of the “92” is different than the “218” on the barrel. My hunch is that it’s another over-stamped model 65 barrel, but just wondering what others think.
Don,
That appears to be a faked barrel marking. Look closely at the “MODEL” part of the marking… part of the “D” is missing, and a “2” is visible under/beside it. The “218 BEE” marking is not the same as those found on the Model 65 barrels. Like Gary mentioned, the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would quickly resolve the question.
Bert
Also, why would the “92” be a different font and size than the “MODEL” and the “218 BEE”???
Charlie,
I visited your web site. Looks like a great shop. I’ll keep your inventory on my watch list.
Thanks,
Al
Bert H. said
Tony,
Thanks… I had it in the survey, and noted it as having a shortened barrel.
Bert
Bert, another 65 down under for your survey
SN 1002073
Tony
Tony. R said
Bert, another 65 down under for your survey
SN 1002073
Tony
I have it entered as a standard 32 WCF.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mjuarez0829 said
Another 65 for the survey – 1000775 25-20
I will assume it is a standard rifle with standard sights? Have you checked the barrel date (it should be “33”)?
Thanks,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Yes, standard rifle with standard sights…well there is a marbles tang sight on it. Haven’t checked the barrel date. The gun is not in my possession..
The barrel date is nice information to have, but not absolutely necessary.
Thanks,
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jim Cauthen said
Bert,Many thanks for the information, and the chance to explore the origins of this rifle. Like alot of things I run into with rare guns, its clear as mud:) I’m going to New Mexico for a week to see if my son can win his second SASS World Championship. Yep, our vacations include guns, pretty much always!
I’ll get a membership for myself, so Jim can have his name back on the forum. If any of you ever have a firearm of high-interest for sale, please let me know. We love collectible, antique firearms:)
There is a really neat piece on Guns International of ours. Its an ’86 Deluxe, with WW2 history. Awesome story behind it. Bert, I think you’d like the backstory, as it is about a family who served in our Armed Forces. Great stuff.
God Bless you guys,
Charlie
Charlie,
I am the person that called you when you were at your son’s shoot in N.M.
I have a 92 218 Bee with identical markings ser. # 999935 and the ’50 barrel date.
For any of the members who are attending the Aug. Big Reno Show, if you would like to see the one I have I am at table J-3.
Mr. Hartman thoroughly inspected this gun a while back and guessed that “it may have been a special order gun”.
No definite conclusion was made.
I spoke to Mr. Ed Ulrich who was a Winchester Sales Rep. starting in the 1950s and he informed me there were times that assembled
guns were sold to employees on site in the “WINCHESTER STORE”, but no documentation is available.
I had purchased from him, a 92 ser. #1006656 with wood that matches the model 64 Deer Rifle. He said he bought it at the “WINCHESTER STORE”,
back in the 50;s. I have seen 94s in the same configuration, one with an octagon barrel pictured in the Model 1894 book.
Regards,
Roger Baker
These unusual guns keeps the mystic of Winchester guns going,
Roger,
There is a third identical Model 92 218 Bee rifle out there, and the owner brought it to the Cody show last month so that I could inspect it. Like your rifle and Charlie’s rifle, it also has a modified Model 43 218 Bee barrel on it. The owner is going to bring it to the November Reno show, and I would like you to bring your rifle so that we can put them side-by-side for comparison.
At this point, I am of the belief that Winchester made up a small number of parts clean-up Model 92 rifles using Model 43 barrels. The barrel dates on all three are 49, 50, and 50. Based on that finding, my guess is that Winchester assembled the Model 92 rifles in mid-year 1950 or slightly later.
I am of the firm belief that Winchester did not manufacture any “regular” production Model 92 rifles in 218 Bee, but apparently, they did make up a small number of them after the fact during the final parts clean-ups process.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert, as usual you are right on top of the latest available info!
I hope to be at the Nov. show.
These new findings really add to the excitement and anticipation of Winchester collecting.
Wonder what “undiscovered item” will pop up next??
Roger B
podufa said
Well Bert how did you figure out it is a model 43 barrel?
On the third rifle, I was able to examine the barrel on the Model 92 rifle alongside a Model 43 in the same caliber… they were identical except for the Model designation. Additionally, all three of the subject 218 Bee Model 92 rifles are marked identically to a Model 43 other than the “92”. The odds of someone other than Winchester assembling these three rifles is getting very slim.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
If you look at the pictures in the link to the Cauthen rifle, #71, you will see the groove milled in the bottom of the barrel for the clearance of the magazine tube. This clearance cut is not on model 43 barrels. This almost certainly was done by the factory to fit to the 92′ receivers whether using Model 43 barrels or a special run of barrels to be used for returns by customers wanting the “newer and hotter” varmint cartridges promoted back then.
Old-Win said
If you look at the pictures in the link to the Cauthen rifle, #71, you will see the groove milled in the bottom of the barrel for the clearance of the magazine tube. This clearance cut is not on model 43 barrels. This almost certainly was done by the factory to fit to the 92′ receivers whether using Model 43 barrels or a special run of barrels to be used for returns by customers wanting the “newer and hotter” varmint cartridges promoted back then.
Good point! At is point, I feel confident that Winchester made up a small number of parts clean-up Model 92 Rifles in 218 Bee using modified Model 43 barrels. Based on the observed barrel dates, it appears that they were assembled in 1949 & 1950.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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