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Roger that…looking forward to getting memory details back…and anxiously awaiting the release of your RB 2015 Fourth Edition!
WACA Member #304
sb said
A year or so ago, at a local show, a very knowledgeable Winchester collector brought 2 of his Winchester 1892 rifles in 218 Bee for me to look at. I was quite surprised to find both had model 65 barrels which someone had very nicely redone the address and marked them mod 92.
Bert H. said
The 218 Bee cartridge was actually introduced in the year 1937 (coincident with the 219 Zipper for the Model 64). I am not of the opinion that the number listed in Art Pirkle’s book is a realistic or accurate count. Like Michael, I have been searching for an original Model 92 in 218 Bee for many years, and as of today, I have not yet found one. However, I have seen at least a dozen or so older Model 1892s that have a mail order 218 Bee barrel on them, but none of them in the correct serial number range (1,000,000+) .
In regards to the Model 65, I have a research survey in progress for them (for the past 4+ years), and thus far, I have surveyed a total of (271) Model 65 rifles with the following statistical breakdown;
25-20 WCF = 46
32 WCF = 79
218 Bee = 145Standard Rifles = 248
Deluxe Rifles = 23The Model 65 was introduced in early 1933, and was serialized in the Model 92 range. The serial numbers for the Model 65 began very near 1,000,000 (I have a very small number of them (4) that were assembled with serial numbers in the very high 980,000+ range). Additionally, I have (5) rifles with “37” marked 218 Bee barrels (982953, 1002356, 1002663, 1002957, and 1003226).
Based on my survey results thus far, the 218 Bee was/is the most common cartridge for the Model 65 at 53.5%. If you extrapolate that out over the listed Model 65 production total of 5,717, that would indicate that approximately 3,060 were made in that cartridge. That stated, I have very solid evidence that the actual production number for the Model 65 is in the 7,800 area.
I am currently writing a new article for WACA Collector magazine where I will clear up some of the myths and erroneous information published in the past about the Model 65, and in it, I it will provide the details of my research survey.
For anyone who owns a Model 65 and would like to have it included in the survey, please get in touch with me.
Last item… there are PR records for approximately the last 1,000 Model 65 serial numbers.
Bert
Bert H. said
The 218 Bee cartridge was actually introduced in the year 1937 (coincident with the 219 Zipper for the Model 64). I am not of the opinion that the number listed in Art Pirkle’s book is a realistic or accurate count. Like Michael, I have been searching for an original Model 92 in 218 Bee for many years, and as of today, I have not yet found one. However, I have seen at least a dozen or so older Model 1892s that have a mail order 218 Bee barrel on them, but none of them in the correct serial number range (1,000,000+) .
In regards to the Model 65, I have a research survey in progress for them (for the past 4+ years), and thus far, I have surveyed a total of (271) Model 65 rifles with the following statistical breakdown;
25-20 WCF = 46
32 WCF = 79
218 Bee = 145Standard Rifles = 248
Deluxe Rifles = 23The Model 65 was introduced in early 1933, and was serialized in the Model 92 range. The serial numbers for the Model 65 began very near 1,000,000 (I have a very small number of them (4) that were assembled with serial numbers in the very high 980,000+ range). Additionally, I have (5) rifles with “37” marked 218 Bee barrels (982953, 1002356, 1002663, 1002957, and 1003226).
Based on my survey results thus far, the 218 Bee was/is the most common cartridge for the Model 65 at 53.5%. If you extrapolate that out over the listed Model 65 production total of 5,717, that would indicate that approximately 3,060 were made in that cartridge. That stated, I have very solid evidence that the actual production number for the Model 65 is in the 7,800 area.
I am currently writing a new article for WACA Collector magazine where I will clear up some of the myths and erroneous information published in the past about the Model 65, and in it, I it will provide the details of my research survey.
For anyone who owns a Model 65 and would like to have it included in the survey, please get in touch with me.
Last item… there are PR records for approximately the last 1,000 Model 65 serial numbers.
Bert
Hello Gentlemen, I have a Model 92 with sn in 40,xxx range which was mfg in 1908, it has a Model 65 218 Bee barrel. Were these usually aftermarket barrels put on buy gunsmiths or were they sent back to Winchester and re-barreled. I was given the gun in the middle 70’s for my 16th birthday, by an older gentleman who has long past and along with him the history of the rifle. Any info is greatly appreciated. Jim
Jim,
I have not yet found a Model 1892 with a Model 65 barrel on it that I believe was factory installed.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Old-Win said
Could this be one? It sounds very similar to the OP’s.
What is the serial number on that rifle? Is it a Model “1892” as marked on the upper tang, or is it a late production Model 92 with a type 6 or type 7 upper tang marking? Can you provide additional pictures of this rifle? The date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would also help.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
That appears, to me, to be a model 65 barrel that has had the 65 changed to 92.
Bert,
The rifle started out as a 92 Winchester in 25-20, serial # 933408. I bought it from an older gentleman about 35 years ago, who was selling off his firearms at the time. He told me he had sent it back to the factory to be rebarreled. There was no reason not to believe him. As you can see, the number 65 has almost been removed and the letters 92 in the correct font have been overstamped although not evenly. I have seen one other 92 done in the same manner. The barrel has a date of 42 on the bottom which surprises me as that is a war time date. The rifle had also been fitted with new bolt cut for a rear bolt sight.
When I bought the rifle, it was in pretty rough shape, although the bolt and barrel were decent. At the time, I was taking a bluing class so decided to refurbish the rifle as a project. As you can see, new wood and blue.
While not impossible, I have my doubts about Winchester restamping a Model 65 barrel with the “92” in that fashion. It simply does not conform to typical Winchester factory work quality. The fact that it started out life as a 25-20 continues to support the supposition that Winchester manufactured only a very small number (if any) Model 92 rifles in 218 Bee.
Because of the economics at the time, (1937 – 1942), I am unable to find any reason that makes any sense as to why Winchester would make a Model 92 in 218 Bee when if a customer wanted a rifle in that caliber, they could buy a nearly identical Model 65 rifle. If an order came in for a rifle in 218 Bee, I am of the belief that Winchester would have filled it with a Model 65. Keep in mind that the Model 92 was near its final breath (dying) prior to the introduction of the Model 65 in 1933. My research is telling me that fewer than (400) total Model 92s were manufactured in or after the year 1933… all calibers.
Bert
As for the “42” marked barrel, production of most Winchester models did not end to support WW II until the August – October 1942 timeframe. For the Model 65, the last serial number listed in the PR records for 1942 was on 10/29/1942 (ser. 1007438), and on 9/24/1945, production resumed. For the Model 94, production was halted on 8/23/1942 (ser. 1343183), and resumed on 9/24/1945.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
If the rifle was rebarreled by an outside source, would the rifle have the oval WP on both the receiver and the barrel?
Old-Win said
If the rifle was rebarreled by an outside source, would the rifle have the oval WP on both the receiver and the barrel?
The receiver would definitely have a proof mark on it from when it was proofed as a 25-20. The barrel is another story. If it was done at the factory, it would for sure have the proof mark on it. If it was a take-off barrel and later installed on a different rifle, it would have the proof mark. If it was a mail order barrel, I would expect to see two proof marks on it (the “P” and “WP”). Being that it is a “42” marked barrel, there is no scenario where it would not have the “WP” proof mark.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Guns International has a Model 92 in 218 BEE for sale. Madis has the same gun pictured in his book. Do you think it’s factory original? The font size of the “92” is different than the “218” on the barrel. My hunch is that it’s another over-stamped model 65 barrel, but just wondering what others think.
January 26, 2011
Offline
I’m betting on a 65 barrel, mag and fore end attached to a 92 frame and buttstock………once again. But for the reasonable price of $29k, you might just have yourself a gem. Again, I think a glimpse of the barrel date would be telling.
~Gary~
If not an original barrel, it would have to be a 65 that was completed remarked as the address is different than the standard 65 address. The marking does look suspicious in the photos.
deerhunter said
Guns International has a Model 92 in 218 BEE for sale. Madis has the same gun pictured in his book. Do you think it’s factory original? The font size of the “92” is different than the “218” on the barrel. My hunch is that it’s another over-stamped model 65 barrel, but just wondering what others think.
Don,
That appears to be a faked barrel marking. Look closely at the “MODEL” part of the marking… part of the “D” is missing, and a “2” is visible under/beside it. The “218 BEE” marking is not the same as those found on the Model 65 barrels. Like Gary mentioned, the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would help to resolve the question.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert this one has just sold down under, if it is of interest to your 65 survey.
Tony
Model 65 218 Bee SN 1004738
Bert H. said
Don,
That appears to be a faked barrel marking. Look closely at the “MODEL” part of the marking… part of the “D” is missing, and a “2” is visible under it. The “218 BEE” marking is not the same as those found on the Model 65 barrels. Like Gary mentioned, the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would quickly resolve the question.
Bert
Wow, I didn’t notice that until I zoomed in on the barrel marking. Amazing that Madis did not catch that before featuring it in his book.
Don
Tony. R said
Bert this one has just sold down under, if it is of interest to your 65 survey.Tony
Model 65 218 Bee SN 1004738
Tony,
Thanks… I had it in the survey, and noted it as having a shortened barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
deerhunter said
Guns International has a Model 92 in 218 BEE for sale. Madis has the same gun pictured in his book. Do you think it’s factory original? The font size of the “92” is different than the “218” on the barrel. My hunch is that it’s another over-stamped model 65 barrel, but just wondering what others think.
Don,
That appears to be a faked barrel marking. Look closely at the “MODEL” part of the marking… part of the “D” is missing, and a “2” is visible under/beside it. The “218 BEE” marking is not the same as those found on the Model 65 barrels. Like Gary mentioned, the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would quickly resolve the question.
Bert
Hello All,
My name is Charlie, and I manage the shop for JE Cauthen & Sons. I was told about the forum by a customer, and he told me the Model 92 .218 Bee we have, has been labeled a fake, here on the forum. I have taken another picture of the stamping with my phone, and will attempt to load it here. Im not a photographer, we just pay one good money to photograph our guns. If you inspect the photo I took today, you’ll see there is no overstamp or other issue with the barrel stamping.
Jim Cauthen has collected Winchesters for 30 years, and is a well-known dealer of nice Winchesters and Colts. The purpose of my post is to protect the good name James Cauthen has in the gun industry. We buy fine collectible Winchesters, and have seen our share of fakes. This is the rifle pictured in the Madis book. The rifle was bought due to the provenance the Madis write-up brings to the rifle. Anyone who may have questions about the rifle, can contact me directly by phone at JE Cauthen & Sons Fine Firearms, Fredericksburg, Texas. We also have a website. Thanks for the seat at the table. It is appreciated.
Below is the link to the photo. I posted it on our Facebook page, in order to share it here. Thanks again.
Bert H. said
deerhunter said
Guns International has a Model 92 in 218 BEE for sale. Madis has the same gun pictured in his book. Do you think it’s factory original? The font size of the “92” is different than the “218” on the barrel. My hunch is that it’s another over-stamped model 65 barrel, but just wondering what others think.
Don,
That appears to be a faked barrel marking. Look closely at the “MODEL” part of the marking… part of the “D” is missing, and a “2” is visible under/beside it. The “218 BEE” marking is not the same as those found on the Model 65 barrels. Like Gary mentioned, the date stamp on the bottom of the barrel would quickly resolve the question.
Bert
Also, why would the “92” be a different font and size than the “MODEL” and the “218 BEE”???
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Hello Charlie,
How do you explain the picture of the barrel marking as it appears in your GI listing? The picture very clearly shows an underlying “2” digit, and the lower right side of the “D” is misshaped. High quality digital cameras often have the ability to show us things that are virtually undetectable to the naked eye. Cell phone cameras have limited capabilities.
One way that you can help put this discussion to rest, and potentially prove if it is real or fake, is to remove both the magazine tube and forend stock, and then post a clear picture of all the markings on the underside of the barrel.
I have posted a resized copy of the picture as listed on Guns International for those who have not seen what is being discussed.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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