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wallyb said
Hi
Is it not possible someone with a late ’92 sent the gun back to the factory ten years later
to have a 218 bee barrel installed? I have no dog in this fight.
Walter
Yes, it is possible. However, unless the owner/seller has documentation to support it being returned to Winchester to be rebarrelled (actually an entirely new front end), most of us are going to be skeptical of its pedigree.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
wallyb said
Hi
Is it not possible someone with a late ’92 sent the gun back to the factory ten years later
to have a 218 bee barrel installed? I have no dog in this fight.
Walter
Yes, it is possible. However, unless the owner/seller has documentation to support it being returned to Winchester to be rebarrelled (actually an entirely new front end), most of us are going to be skeptical of its pedigree.
Bert
Hey Bert,
Shouldn’t that statement read,,,
Skeptical of it’s Apiary,,
Being, the Subject is about 218 Bee’s.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
Mark,
I suppose that is another way to look at it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
The chances of finding documentation on a ’92 sent back to the factory for a 218 barrel are probably zero. But with Winchester, anything is possible. I like rare Winchesters, but OLD ones. The Julia ’92/218 bee now has a “cloud” over it. I think that when the older collectors are gone, the new ones will accept auction guns as gospel.
Walter
Walter,
Hopefully that does not come to be. It is one of the reasons that I have spent so much of my spare time researching old Winchesters, and also openly discussing them on forums such as this one. I truly hope that “newer” Winchester collectors do not blindly believe what they read in an auction listing!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Regarding the Winchester 1892 in “.218 Bee” at the James Julia Auction…
IF this firearm WERE indeed a genuine Winchester 1892 chambered in .218 Bee, I would expect the firearm to still look like an 1892 rifle, and not a Winchester 65 or 53. The forearm and stock that appears more like that of a Winchester 65 or 53 should be evidence that something isn’t right.
By the way, what sort of individual is purchasing this type of rifle these days, with a price this high and with these sorts of problems? I am a collector and shooter, and perhaps a bit of an “investor”, but, having said that, I could maybe afford something like this a few times in a lifetime–and if I was spending this kind of money, I would be sure to do my homework!!! I would think that this sort of rifle would appeal to only a true 1892 collector, and I would think this sort of individual would not be fooled by this particular example. This means that this probably was bought by a “wealthy investor”–e.g., someone who is tossing money blindly at lots of investments, with little or no research. Does this sound possible or probable? I don’t think folks like me and you, the ‘true’ collectors, in general, have the money to toss $20,000 all day long at auctions such as these, several times a year. As for me, if I were going to an auction such as this one, if I succeeded in bidding on something at this price, it would set me back for quite awhile…and yet, lot after lot at these auctions go for tis price, and often much more.
I get the Wall Street Journal every now and again. I have noticed that Rock Island Auction, and possibly James Julia, take out full page display ads when an auction is upcoming. Such advertising isn’t cheap. I would think the ‘typical’ reader of the Wall Street Journal probably knows little about firearms, maybe never has even held one before. Are these folks bidding up the prices on this stuff, perhaps as an ‘alternative investment’, especially since interest rates are so low?
Hey, if Madis pictured it in his book and said it is right, it must be so!
wallyb said
I think that when the older collectors are gone, the new ones will accept auction guns as gospel.
Walter
While there will always be those who are taken in, including new collectors, mainstream collecting will always be very concerned about originality. We see this in every other collecting field from paintings to furniture, so I would fully expect that originality will always be a high focus in the Winchester collecting community. Furthermore, I expect that it will become increasingly important is more fakes and doctored guns are passed off as originals.
Bert H. said
Yes I am.
Bert;
New WACA member. I have 3 model 65’s for your survey
1.25-20 standard sn-1,003,943
2.32-20 standard sn-1,006,941
3.218 Bee standard sn-1,004,310 bolt peep
Doug
Doug,
Thank you very much!
Does serial number 1003943 have a “W” stamped on the bottom of the receiver below the serial number?
Have you checked the barrels dates on any of them?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Doug,
Thank you very much!
Does serial number 1003943 have a “W” stamped on the bottom of the receiver below the serial number?
Have you checked the barrels dates on any of them?
Bert
YES,3943 does have the w below the reciever. No, have not checked barrel dates
Doug,
Would you mind checking the dates for me?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I remain curious, not ever having been to a RIA or James Julia auction, do the folks attending those venues as ‘investors’ simply toss money at these firearms without doing any research and view the pre-auction estimate as what it is worth, + or – a ‘reasonable amount’, in their mind? What some of tis stuff brings amazes me, but, then again, if you are new to firearms or simply view it as an investment vehicle, you might toss blindly a lot of money at something you know little about now, reasoning that, in time, it will be worth a whole lot more later. Comments?
mrcvs said
I remain curious, not ever having been to a RIA or James Julia auction, do the folks attending those venues as ‘investors’ simply toss money at these firearms without doing any research and view the pre-auction estimate as what it is worth, + or – a ‘reasonable amount’, in their mind? What some of tis stuff brings amazes me, but, then again, if you are new to firearms or simply view it as an investment vehicle, you might toss blindly a lot of money at something you know little about now, reasoning that, in time, it will be worth a whole lot more later. Comments?
I believe that to some degree, that is what happens. Greed is an evil creature, and it does not care who it attacks.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I would like to add a Model 65 to the research survey the Bert H is conducting. Mine has a serial number beyond the recognized range for the model 1892.
The serial is 1007499 and is in .25-20. It looks quite original with the exception of the bolt which seems to have been changed, perhaps for headspace adjustment. I have read that some of these guns outside the serial number range were made of leftover parts after the model 92 production ceased.
Thanks
Ed
Hello Ed,
Your Model 65 is not actually outside of the known “recognized” serial number range. The verified serial number range for the Model 65 extends all the way up to 1007608. Your Model 65 was a regular production rifle, manufactured in early October of 1945, just before production was ceased.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Hi Bert
Thank you for the information. This is a rifle that I have had for more than a decade, but knew very little about.
I see that you have some nice 1885’s in your post. Is there a forum that is specifically for them? I’m new here, so I’m just finding my way around.
1885’s have become my main interest.
Ed
Ed,
Model 1885 Single Shots have been the primary focus of my Winchester collecting habits for more than 35-years now. In answer to your question, No. there is not a separate forum for them… they belong right here along with the rest of the Winchester “rifles”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Ed,
Model 1885 Single Shots have been the primary focus of my Winchester collecting habits for more than 35-years now. In answer to your question, No. there is not a separate forum for them… they belong right here along with the rest of the Winchester “rifles”.
Bert
I don’t know if they really “belong” with the real Winchester rifles but they do worm their way in here.
Bert…I’d be glad to share data on the single M65 in .218 Bee in my collection but chemo brain prevents recollection of whether or not I’ve already given it to you. Let me know if you don’t have SN 1005132 in your data base and I’ll get you info…
WACA Member #304
Captain Kummok said
Bert…I’d be glad to share data on the single M65 in .218 Bee in my collection but chemo brain prevents recollection of whether or not I’ve already given it to you. Let me know if you don’t have SN 1005132 in your data base and I’ll get you info…
I have it, including the barrel date… thanks!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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