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Maybe some of you have seen this rifle currently for sale. It is being presented as 99%.
The muzzle appears blued and not cut straight…
The inner mag tube is apparently brass…
Wood is high, high gloss…
Bluing doesn’t appear to be machine bluing…
Fit and finish is questionable…
I’d opine it a restoration. A nice one but clearly a restoration.
I suspect it is going to go even higher than the current 1.5K.
Comments?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=327388138
What I see is a hammer with WAY more miles then the finish on it. And a set of sights that have a patina that does not match the barrel around them. And the other points mentioned above.
Even the sanding marks on the receiver shows it has been refinished.
Clearly an nicely refinished gun. For example the muzzle chamfer is all wrong, it is machine cut, not hand filed. It goes on and on. Every part of the gun is wrong. But they did use original finish sights!
Hi fellows,
My eye tells me that this indeed is a very nice restoration. Everything is just too perfect for this gun to be all original. I noticed a couple of little things that didn’t seem right. First, the head on the screw that holds the carrier lifter spring in place appears to be buggered. Second, the circular chamfer at the muzzle is not correct for it to be original. Third, there appears to be some kind of projection at the rear of the cartridge bore in the carrier that doesn’t appear to be correct. There may be other small things I missed seeing. The gun should not be represented as all original.
Hossfeathers
Thanks for the excellent input.
I missed many of the things you guys brought up.
Always great to hear from the experts!
Online
The wood is a dead give away. As it usually is.
-Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Wow, looks like someone paid more for this restored gun than an original is worth. Ouch
January 26, 2011
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I see these restored, or even backyard bubba blued guns selling for higher and higher prices lately.
Do you guys think that the mentality of restoring guns ruins collector value will someday become less of a factor? You just see a lot of other antiques, old cars and such that seem to be worth more after complete restorations. I certainly hope this doesnt happen with our beloved Winchesters.
Gary
~Gary~
I emailed the seller and this is the last reply that I received from him. I don’t agree with his analysis here, but I am no expert. I do believe that he honestly thinks it is NOT restored. He has read this forum, so knows what the experts think. There are some things that he does not address in his email, like the muzzle area. Maybe you experts could address this so we can all learn something. It’s all about learning to me.
Hi Peter,
I may have come off a bit harsh and for this I apologise. I have been in the firearms business for over 30 years. Arm chair "experts" who snipe from a computer keyboard have become something of a pet peeve of mine. I make my living doing this and I have done so for a LONG time. My reputation is all I have, and I treasure & defend it. My experience is hands on as a gunsmith, FFL holder and professional. It is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately judge a firearm solely through pictures, no matter how good they are. I have personally handled over 400 individual 1890 Winchesters. I have 2 others at my shop – 1 deluxe model (checkered wood & color case hardened receiver) that is a Doug Turnbull restoration and another in 22 WRF in nicer condition than the one I just sold with better wood made in 1911 that is also, in my opinion, unrestored and original. The sights were not made at the Winchester factory which accounts for the difference in patina – if they did match the rifle bluing, THAT would be indicative of refinishing as they would have used the same salts bath at the same time. I use a rag with StrikeHold on it to wipe down firearms as I take pictures which is why the sheen of the wood is so bright (plus harsh lighting). This helps to show up dings, scratches and irregulaties in the surfaces of both wood and metal. I’m beginning to ramble, so I’ll stop now.
Again, if I have offended, I offer my apologies.
Wade Young
Hilltop Pawn
There has been some mention of problems with this gun at the muzzle end…could someone post a picture of a correct muzzle end and explain the difference? Thanks, Peter
Hi Peter,
My observations:
Pic #9, Lathe machining marks outer edges of crown where it touches the octagonal flats
Pic #10, Slight softening of letters on roll mark
Pic # 18/19, Brass loading tube, could be original, but I’ve never seen one
Pic #22, Big one for me, rounded corners where the lower receiver mates with the trigger group/stock
Pic # 30, Stock looks like it’s been off, If new gun, I would expect tighter fit
Trying to find a second model 1890 in 99% overall condition is difficult. I believe the bidding on this restored piece is representative of this fact. The market value of original Model 1890s, all models, in 99% condition are surprisingly high.
Look at the finish on the "99%" GB rifle and compare to one of my machine blued rifles…[Image Can Not Be Found]
I am constanly amazed at how many "Gunsmiths" and "Dealers" don’t know or can’t tell, original blue from refininshed blue. Of course they may be deliberately making a "mistake".
Link to an original 1890 2nd model.
http://www.winchestercollector.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5457&highlight=
Picture of an original 1890 muzzle.
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
Great pictures CJ…Thanks for that…What do you suppose happened to the GB gun muzzle, I mean I can see the re-do, but why screw up the barrel muzzle like they did? I am also amazed that the seller, with all his experience and knowledge did not catch this. Maybe I agree with you CJ…"I am constanly amazed at how many "Gunsmiths" and "Dealers" don’t know or can’t tell, original blue from refininshed blue. Of course they may be deliberately making a "mistake". Thanks again for the pictures….good learn. Peter
Taking the photo of the muzzle from the GB 1890 and changing the gamma a little to bring out more detail.
[/img]
That sure don’t look like any original 1890 muzzle I ever seen.
Member requested a photo of how an original muzzle appeared. Here’s one on an untouched 98% 1890 with no photo adjustments. Just stuck my camera in the safe. [Image Can Not Be Found][/img]
ohlode said
Member requested a photo of how an original muzzle appeared. Here’s one on an untouched 98% 1890 with no photo adjustments. Just stuck my camera in the safe. [Image Can Not Be Found][/img]
Yea see how each flat has its own 45 degree cut. In the GB 1890 its all one cut made on a lathe varing in width as it passes the points on the octagon.
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