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Hello,
The upside of doing some research is that you get to look at LOTS of rifles. I came across this good looking Model 61 with octagon barrel, 1947 vintage, and in 22 Long Rifle only. Definitely a tasty combination. Listed at $1800 and in quite nice condition. I needed the serial number for my survey and decided to lay out a ridiculous "low ball offer" of $1500. Bang! Got a bit! Fish On! But wait, I still needed the serial number. And the gun was photographed very nicely which is uncommon for the "typical" general public. Neck hairs is begining to bristle just a bit.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/1257729/delaware-rifles-for-sale–winchester—made-in-1947——mod–61–22-lr–w-rare-factory-24-inch-octagon-bl-
I got this reply:
Hello thanks for your interest in buying the Gun and here is the full serial number of the gun 203925 i will sell the gun for you for $1500 because i really need the money for my wife and children and the gun is the only thing that can get me the money fast. please let us proceed on how you will make payment for the gun.
The old sick family story line. Always a WARNING sign to me. And "get me the money fast"!!!! Alarms going full blast.
Ok. I got the serial number for my survey but the date range is 1953 not 1947 and …… I already have that number for a rifle just listed on Joe Salters site(#22717). I have pointed out the mismatch of the date and asked for a photo of the SN. I am betting I never get it!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
How do you proceed next? Is this just a scam? Or did the guy really steal the gun & is now trying to sell it?
The two rifles are totally different. The guy "stole" someones photos and then the serial number for Salter’s site and put the two together and is trying to get someone to send him a check which I am sure will get cashed but no rifle will ever show up.
I have used the Scam Alert on the ARMSLIST site but can not find any other notification possibilities.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Had a guy a month or two back selling a Henry marked 1866 for $2500. Same story, husband was sick in Massachusetts, she was trying to get to him from Oregon and the # she replied to me in a text was from Utah. Pics were lifted from gunbroker.
ARMSLIST is full of this. A big percentage are scams, where the photos and description are lifted from another site. There’s been a lot of discussion about this on another gun forum.
Its not the only website either.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Hello all,
It’s a different day, a different gun with lifted photos and description from an older Gunbroker listing but the same guy with the same game. When you click on the link please click the "FLAG" link just above "Contact the seller" and then click on the "Scam" highlight. I can not find any way to directly contact ARMSLIST and alert them.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/1340342/wisconsin-rifles-for-sale–winchester-model-61—low-serial-number
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
March 20, 2005
Offline
Home>Wisconsin>Rifles> For Sale: Winchester Model 61 – LOW SERIAL NUMBER
The community has spoken! This listing been flagged as a scam.
What timing! Just got an email from a potential buyer for a Winchester 101 Quail Special I have for sale on Gun Broker and Guns International. He said the same gun with same pictures is for sale on Armslist also. I contacted Armslist, but have not heard back.
Steve
Seewin,
Post the fraudulent ARMSLIST links here and we can all click the "scam" alert and apparently there is a notification that is triggered by how many folks do this.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Here is the Armslist scam
http://www.armslist.com/posts/1279484/colorado-shotguns-for-sale–nib-winchester-101-410-gauge
My GunBroker adv:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=334203123
Steve
Online
Its been flagged.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
If Gunbroker and the other on line auction sites would disallow the downloading of the images posted then this sort of scam would be much less prevalent. But, that action certainly would cramp my surveys since I like to keep image files of as many rifles as I can add into my work. You never know when I need to check something.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael, I am in the same boat. I am conducting a survey of model 52 D&E’s. The pictures come in handy. Just wish there were not so many crooks out there!
Steve
Fellows;
The posting of the pictures is actually a very good thing, as it allows us to more readily identify the fraudulent sale listings. The fact that we see the legitimate photos and auction listing, and then find the fraudulent listing (with the same pictures) is a valuable tool. What strikes me as really odd is the apparent fact that the crooks do not understand that as a community, we spend a lot of time looking for and at the online auction listings.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, what I find with these listings, is that the fraudulent seller usually prices the firearm way below market value, hoping to snag a buyer that wants to grab it before someone else get’s it. He usually does not bring it to the attention of the public for the same reason. I saw this happen a couple of years ago on a very valuable Model 52 International. In this case it was about a 1/3 the fair market price. Adv was written like a sob story about rifle being his father’s and needed to sell it for health reasons. When I questioned buyer, he was very hesitant to give out any substantial info on it, so I became skeptical. Later I found that it was a scam and same rifle with same pictures showed up many times with different stories.
In my case concerning the 101, seller advertised everything including the end label of box! Pretty easy to cross it over to mine. The potential buyer who contacted me told me the same story. Seller was in military and traveling. Would not be home for a couple days, and even offered his military ID to prove deal was legit. He offered shotgun for $2,500, my price was $4,300. A pretty good deal to say the least!
Steve
Steve,
I find the exact same thing, but again, I personally believe that it is better to have the photos of the gun out there for all to see… both in the authentic auctions and in the fraudulent auction listings. It makes it much easier to identify and prove that it is fraudulently listed. What we as a group need to do is more aggressively pursue the crooks. If one of my Winchesters were to be offered for sale by a crook, I personally would take steps to identify the person attempting to sell it, and then I would contact the appropriate law enforcement entity. I would also make the effort to contact the owner(s) of the websites that are allowing the fraudulent sales listing, and put some pressure on them as well.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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