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September 10, 2013 - 7:34 pm
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This is not a factory original gun!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=364624916

[color=red:19af0a8dcd][size=18:19af0a8dcd]Note: The seller took the auction down (after he read what we had to say), and then put it back up with a new listing number.[/size:19af0a8dcd][/color:19af0a8dcd]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=366039355

Bert

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September 11, 2013 - 5:26 am
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He’s got a bunch of ‘in box’ guns. I sure hate to see sketchy sellers get away with fraud. Is there not a way to get the authorities investigating this and laying charges?

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September 11, 2013 - 6:16 am
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What is wrong with it? Looks original to me. It has the long forearm, but I think Winchester made the long forearm into 1951.

Midas the Greek God – Not Madis the Winchester God

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September 11, 2013 - 7:02 am
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Taught By Midas said
What is wrong with it? Looks original to me. It has the long forearm, but I think Winchester made the long forearm into 1951.

I probably should not be telling you what is wrong with, as you are the person selling the gun. That stated, there are several things wrong with it… the long forend stock is just one of them. The change from the long to the short forend was rather abrupt, and it took place well before that Carbine was made. Did you happen to notice what is printed on the end label of the fake box?

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September 11, 2013 - 7:24 am
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Wasn’t it common for Winchester to put the wrong model number on the boxes?

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September 11, 2013 - 7:55 am
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SB said
Wasn’t it common for Winchester to put the wrong model number on the boxes?

Absolutely not, and it is not just the Model number that is wrong on the end label.

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September 11, 2013 - 8:16 am
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If you look at the different labels in the different auctions, it seems that Winchester almost always used blue ink and had the same person record the serial numbers too.

It does seem that quite a few people find these items acceptable as the seller’s feedback is perfect.

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September 11, 2013 - 10:08 am
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Now I got curious…really, what´s wrong with the rifle? I have one in .32 Special, made 1950 (barrel date) and serial in the vicinity of 1700 000. It looks exactly same as the gun in question, same long forearm, same rear sight, butt plate etc…the pictures look as they were taken using my rifle, even the condition is about the same. And I know that my rifle is 100 % original, as I bought it from the original owner, who lived in U.S. and then came back to Europe about ten years ago – I`m very sure this old man didn´t tinker with his deer rifle, which was stored in his garage.
The box is a different story, so no comments about it…

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September 11, 2013 - 10:35 am
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Leverfan,

A serial number in the vicinity of 1700000 should have the long forend stock. However, a serial number in the vicinity of 1800000 should not (the gun in question is serial number 1798373). I have surveyed hundreds of Model 94s in the 1700000 – 1799999 serial range, and I have very closely identified when Winchester made the change to the forend stock length.

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September 11, 2013 - 12:18 pm
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Regarding the fake label, the Model 1894 had been replaced by the Model 94 designation some 30 years prior to this particular carbine. There is no way the error on the label is a typo, or a left over label that had been kicking around for 30 years. That label is screaming ‘fake’.

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September 11, 2013 - 7:03 pm
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How many Model 94’s did Winchester manufacture in the year 1950?

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September 11, 2013 - 7:54 pm
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quantrez said
How many Model 94’s did Winchester manufacture in the year 1950?

I do not know what the actual number is, but I believe that it was something close to 100,000.

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September 12, 2013 - 5:07 pm
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September 12, 2013 - 6:22 pm
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Yes, that is indeed the correct box label for a post-WW II Carbine. I have to wonder how long it will be before we see "new" boxes for all of those guns listed by the seller "IsaBailey2009"?

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September 13, 2013 - 4:20 am
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I was not even paying attention to these auctions but am always eager to learn.

The description is very misleading and the one I read does not specifically call it out as an "original" box. That is just dirty pool.

On a side note, I highly doubt that the same woman was writing the SN’s on these boxes from 49-61 (the years I quickly glanced at)

Ryan

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September 15, 2013 - 2:25 pm
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I dont know about the box or the foreend….but I do know about the computer print card illustrated for warrantee purposes…used when I went to University of Texas in 1961……this is either a fortrand or cobald card…..used in the collating programming computers of the day…….certainly not in 1951…that was years before the time of this universal card…..maybe 7-8 years, and I doubt Winchester was on computer at this early date.

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September 15, 2013 - 11:11 pm
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I do not see these boxes for sale anywhere, do you think he has someone make them just for him.? You would think the guy making them would be offering them around to other people. It seems the early picture boxes particularly would take a lot of set up expense to make just one or two of each model. Seems like this would be a hard secret to keep from all the Winchester collectors. He does have a lot of nice condition guns, and happy customers.

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September 16, 2013 - 5:52 am
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Some of the stuff is obviously faked, but it does not follow that all of it is. If the seller is having faked boxes or materials made, we should not necessarily expect that the person producing the faked items would also be selling on the side. The seller himself could be making some or all of the items, or the seller could have a private arrangement with someone to make the items and that person may have no interest in Winchesters, Winchester boxes or collecting. It may even be an older person who does not use the internet and may not even know that the faked items are being sold. All we really do know is that at least some of the items are faked or re-worked. If the seller is monitoring this thread, he will also know that some of his stuff is fake and he would knowing be selling faked items. Even if he does not claim in his ads that the fake items are genuine, if the fake items are mixed in with genuine items and presented in the photos is such a way that the average buyer is led to believe they are genuine (box, hang tags, etc.), the seller is on the hook for having misled the buyer.

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September 16, 2013 - 7:40 am
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wolfbait said
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=350767916 Do you really think someone would go to the trouble of making one box like this? And the gun is in superb condition, appropriate for an in the box gun.

Nobody said or claimed that the specific item you mention is a fake. However, and in answer to your question, Yes, I do believe that this seller would go to the trouble of making a fake box.

The item that I originally pointed put is absolutely a fake – http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=366039355

As is this one – http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=365995300

And this one – http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=364816649

All three have identically faked boxes and the paperwork with them, and at least one of the guns has been refinished (claimed to be original).

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September 16, 2013 - 9:34 am
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Is the selling of what appear to be NIB fabrications illegal? Certainly unethical, but is it technically illegal?

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