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I had a 66 Musket come by my table at a gun show today. It was for sale and the owner had no idea what he wanted and was asking for advise. The gun was in poor condition with the brass being cleaned and the barrel seemed to have been polished with steel wool or such. Bands, hammer & lever had been painted black. There were 4 screws missing. Bore looked pretty good. Wood was bruised up but solid and fit well.
Here the question. The serial # was 3xx. Three digits in the mid 3 hundreds. I forgot to write it down. Can this be a correct serial for a musket?
What would be a number I could give for this and not get hurt and be fair with the seller. He’s going to bring it back tomorrow. Thanks
Online
The number is bogus. Probably a couple digits worn off or removed. The 66 was numbered with the Henry’s, the 66 starts at 12,476.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
The number is bogus. Probably a couple digits worn off or removed. The 66 was numbered with the Henry’s, the 66 starts at 12,476.Bob
I thought something was strange there. The numbers I saw were pretty clear and sharp to read and would seem odd for other numbers to be worn that much that I could not see them.
Did it have the flat style loading gate? All of the real early Model 1866s had a flat loading gate, and the serial numbers were stamped on the left edge of the lower tang (under the butt stock). According to some sources, no Muskets were made in either the First or Second variation Model 1866s, but without any records to confirm that assertion, who knows for sure.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I knew I had to open the lever to see the serial clearly. I’ll get some pics today
If the serial number is behind the trigger where you had to open the lever to see it, the gun is in the 19,000 to 139,000 range
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
It looks like the number was 334xx.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
It also doesn’t look like normal wear in the area of the last two “xx” digits but rather intentional removal for some reason (which is a felony). It is also a felony to sell or deliver a firearm with an altered or removed serial number in some states (such as Florida).
Just a heads-up.
Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
It also doesn’t look like normal wear in the area of the last two “xx” digits but rather intentional removal for some reason (which is a felony). It is also a felony to sell or deliver a firearm with an altered or removed serial number in some states (such as Florida).Just a heads-up.
Regards,
Just to play the Devil’s Advocate here, if firearms made prior to 1899 are not considered weapons, then there would be no crime in altering or removing the serial number, would there? Winchester themselves provided replacement lower tangs without serial numbers for out of the factory repairs. Also, prior to the NFA of 1934 serial numbers were not legally required on firearms.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Actually, it was the GCA of 1968 that made serial numbers mandatory. Prior to that, many of the .22 caliber models did not have serial numbers.
In regards to altering an existing serial number, it is a “gray” area when it involves Antique firearms.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wincacher said
Just to play the Devil’s Advocate here, if firearms made prior to 1899 are not considered weapons, then there would be no crime in altering or removing the serial number, would there? Winchester themselves provided replacement lower tangs without serial numbers for out of the factory repairs. Also, prior to the NFA of 1934 serial numbers were not legally required on firearms.
Good point. I wouldn’t want to risk my personal gun rights by arguing it in court though.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
From THE FIRST WINCHESTER:
“On page 102 of his book, Parsons concludes, “…it is the belief of the author that Model ’66 serials began in the vicinity of 13,500, approximately where the Henrys left off.” He went on to comment about lower serials. “A few specimens of the Model ’66 have been reported with serial digits of three or four from 100 to 2611. While no explanation for their separate numbering is known, the frame characteristics of such pieces are later than those in the 14,000 range, yet most have inside serials which would date them in 1868, before serial 20,000.” Parsons believed the low serials might have constituted a special order of about 3,000 guns, and that these guns were part of production in the year 1868. There was ample precedent for Parson’s theory because there had been a few special foreign orders for several hundred Henry rifles, numbered within their own separate serial sequences.”
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
The standard location for serial numbers on the Model 1866 are as follows:
1st and 2nd Models: left side of the lower tang.
3rd Model: bottom of the lower tang between the trigger and the main spring tension screw.
4th Model: lower tang between the lever latch and the lower tang wood screw.
Additionally, buttplates were stamped inside the toe.
Full serial number up to around serial number 17,000.
Last 4 digits up to serial number 60,000.
Lost 3 digits from around serial numbers 60,000 to 150,000.
The serial number on the buttplate toe was only stamped if there was no assembly number used. When assembly numbers were used then that is the number stamped on the bottom of the buttplate toe.
The bottom of the barrel near the receiver had the serial number stamped on it up until around # 16,500.
Sometimes the serial number was stamped on the top of the buttstock inletting for the upper tang but that appears to be a random occurrence.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
I have a old survey of 66’s and the first muskets show up around 31,000. It shows serial 1, 6, 8 and 9 as Briggs patent 66’s and then there are a few with 4 digit numbers but they all have “?” noted behind the entry. The bulk of them that look to be serial numbered in sequence start at 12,272
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I think with the butt plate showing the last four of the serial that the full serial would be 33472. Any thoughts?
Checked that number and the closest is 33473 in the survey. Most of them in that serial range are muskets
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I was able to buy the 66 today. It seem like a honest well used third model musket. It has an issue with the elevator not following the lever as it should. I was eager to get inside anyway. I found one of the lever springs was missing. Don’t know how that would affect the elevator movement. Going to clean the insides good and try to replace the missing spring rod if I can find one. Not sure how to get the bolt/firing pin out. Everything else came apart pretty easy.
The firing pin has to come out first before you can remove the bolt. I would advise you not to do that, if you have to the first step is drive the extractor pin out of the bolt thru the little hole in the top of the receiver. The shell extractor can be rusted in the bolt, the bolt can cracked or broken. Once the extractor pin is aligned with the small hole in the top of the receiver use a small punch (1/8″ or smaller) drive it out thru the small hole in the other side of the receiver. Now remove extractor from the bolt, if the firing pin is not rusted to the bolt you can slide it out the back of the receiver and remove the bolt. If the bolt is broke or rusted to the firing you need help. I do not recommend you take the firing pin/bolt out unless something is broke! T/R
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