Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Please confirm you want to mark all posts read

Mark all topics read

sp_MobileMenu Actions
Avatar
Guest
Not logged in

New/Updated Topics

Select Forum

sp_TopicIcon
1894 takedown from 1895... fixing accuracy?
Avatar
Posts: 18
January 2, 2023 - 4:27 am

1sp_QuotePost

Hey, I just picked up this Winchester 1894 from 1895. It’s a 30WCF, takedown, 26″ octagon.

The gun itself is really beautiful and has tremendous charm. I’ve never owned an antique gun before, and it was far more than I could have ever expected. It’s up there with my 1892 turnbull in 44 magnum as my all time favorite gun.

The first time I took it to the range I could barely hit 12″ target at 25 yards. They were WILDLY off.

I was a bit bummed, but my friend who is much more knowledgeable said I should use a choreboy all copper scrubber to attempt to remove bad leading. I also did my best to measure the rifling and it seems 1:9.

I used an entire chore boy and about 30 minutes. Lots of lead came out. I took a photo and he said he can’t really tell if it’s better and that it still looks like there is tons of lead in there, in addition to pitting. I dont know what pitting looks like, and it could also be the lighting which makes it look way worse. It could also be residue from my cleaning as it appears theres “dust” inside the barrel when I shine the light

Heres 2 videos of it after cleaning…

View post on imgur.com

View post on imgur.com

keep in mind 2 things: 1) this looks worse because of the intensity of the light creating shadows. you will notice theres lots of “dust” looking particles so I have no idea if thats the cleaning residue or something else 2) it may also still be full of lead, i honestly cant even tell if i removed it all. there was a literal pyramid of lead when I brushed, and both times through with chore boy both of them were full of lead particles.

What are my options here?

1. I have read about relining… is it possible to go from 30WCF to 30WCF? I’d rather have the original 30WCF rather than a wildcat caliber, so I would be disappointed if they cant reline back to 30-30

2. I haven’t actually shot it again since I cleaned it (must wait until range is open a full week). I was reading how shooting jacketed bullets can clean lead out, but also damage the barrel by embedding lead deeper… not really sure how that is as an option

3. I can attempt to clean it again I guess, but I need a better method, that was a major pain, i broke a cleaning rod, and it still seems quite discolored and dirty. and rough. 

4. As a side question, the magazine tube has to be screwed in more than the middle (where the takedown lever slot is) in order for it to be tight, otherwise it flops around. Is there any way to fix this so its tight by the time it gets to the center?

5. Any other options or thoughts? 

Thanks!

Image Enlarger

 

Image Enlarger

 

Image Enlarger

Image Enlarger

Avatar
Posts: 1672
January 2, 2023 - 10:43 am

2sp_QuotePost

You have an ANTIQUE Model 1894 with a fair amount of finish and forge lines present, suggesting the finish is original.  I would doubt it is anything other than an original finish.  Plus it is takedown and an octagon barrel.  At least $3000 in todays market.  You don’t want to reline such a valuable rifle!

I would slug the barrel and obtain the true bore diameter.  Then load rounds using a bullet .02” over bore diameter.  Jacketed bullets can also lead to improved accuracy.  You might need to experiment with different powders and loads.

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6168
January 2, 2023 - 2:20 pm

3sp_QuotePost

Exuma said

I was a bit bummed, but my friend who is much more knowledgeable said I should use a choreboy all copper scrubber to attempt to remove bad leading.

No–use this: https://www.big45metalcleaner.com/

For bore cleaning, it’s used by wrapping strands of the stainless steel around a brass bore brush, as much as you can wrap & still push the brush down the bore, using a STEEL not alum rod.  Your lucky to have a TD that can be cleaned from the breech, as starting a tight brush from the muzzle is a PIA.  Might as well wet the brush with one of the lead-removal solvents, but alone, they won’t do the job.

Mrcvs is right about better accuracy from jacketed bullets, but doubtful they’ll get the lead out.  He’s also right about lining–don’t do it.

Avatar
Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 788
January 2, 2023 - 3:40 pm

4sp_QuotePost

Something that I discovered with one of my 1894 carbines.  150 grain factory shells posted a 4 to 6″ plus groups at 50 yards and hit high.  170 grain factory shells posted 2 to 4″ groups more to the center.  Might just have been a fluke, but I have always had better groups with the heavier bullets. Worth a try.  RDB

Avatar
Posts: 1672
January 2, 2023 - 3:57 pm

5sp_QuotePost

rogertherelic said
Something that I discovered with one of my 1894 carbines.  150 grain factory shells posted a 4 to 6″ plus groups at 50 yards and hit high.  170 grain factory shells posted 2 to 4″ groups more to the center.  Might just have been a fluke, but I have always had better groups with the heavier bullets. Worth a try.  RDB

  

Yes, by changing bullet weight, or even a sane weight bullet, but different conformation, could change accuracy one way or another.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Posts: 10639
January 2, 2023 - 4:35 pm

6sp_QuotePost

The rifling twist rate Winchester used for the 30 WCF was 1:12, which was optimum for the 170-gr bullet weight.  If you shoot modern 150-gr factory loads in an old Model 1894 with its original sights, it will shoot high at all range settings on the rear sight elevator.

Like the other fellow mentioned, do NOT reline the barrel.  Keep working on the bore until it gets as clean as possible, and then shoot it with 170-gr loads.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
🇨🇦🇺🇸
Posts: 498
January 2, 2023 - 4:56 pm

7sp_QuotePost

This stuff has helped in the past with some bores.

https://www.hps-tr.com/en/wipeout-cleaning-products

 RickC 

   

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Posts: 4889
January 2, 2023 - 5:04 pm

8sp_QuotePost

Exuma-

I see lots of good rifling but also a fair bit of possible pitting in the grooves. It’s possible to overcome decades of neglect with an hour or two of cleaning but apparently this won’t be the case. I’ve been wrong before but I think with a few more hours’ worth of cleaning we’ll see a pretty decent bore, I’ve seen 1894’s with less rifling shoot decent groups. I prefer to give a neglected bore about 10 back and forth strokes with a good solvent-soaked brush and then it soak 8-24 hours inverted in a cleaning vise before patching it out. Then I repeat the process a few times or until I get the result I’m after. I get good results with gas-checked lead bullets cast 2-3 thousandths over bore size.
You have a very nice old gun, it deserves to be treated with care and patience.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Posts: 18
January 2, 2023 - 5:27 pm

9sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
The rifling twist rate Winchester used for the 30 WCF was 1:12, which was optimum for the 170-gr bullet weight.  If you shoot modern 150-gr factory loads in an old Model 1894 with its original sights, it will shoot high at all range settings on the rear sight elevator.

Like the other fellow mentioned, do NOT reline the barrel.  Keep working on the bore until it gets as clean as possible, and then shoot it with 170-gr loads.

Bert

  

So do you think 1:9 was because I mismeasured? It seemed like I did it right but I will try again.

Also, what is the best way to do this “soak” method that I hear about. Do I just plug the barrel somehow, then put the barrel vertically and fill it to the brim with kroil or something? How do I further clean it?

I seee someone mentioned these: https://www.big45metalcleaner.com/

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6168
January 2, 2023 - 5:31 pm

10sp_QuotePost

RickC said
This stuff has helped in the past with some bores.

https://www.hps-tr.com/en/wipeout-cleaning-products

  

However good this may be for ordinary bore fouling, if leading is the problem, I’ve yet to find a solvent that alone will remove it, because lead is almost inert, chemically.  If there was, there wouldn’t be a need for gadgets like the Lewis Lead Remover, which is very effective, but not made in bore sizes as small as .30.  One of the few substances that will dissolve lead is liquid mercury, & I used to have a small bottle of it for that purpose, lost during one of my many moves; thanks to Big Brother EPA, I’ll never be able to replace it.

Avatar
South Texas
Posts: 1041
January 2, 2023 - 5:40 pm

11sp_QuotePost

I agree with mvcrs & Bert, shoot the 170 grain jacketed bullets, they will likely work best unless you cast your own (a gas check bullet like Mike mentioned would be preferred).  Not sure how much more cleaning will have much of an effect from what I can see.  The bore looks pitted but rifling looks like it goes out to or near the muzzle.  As Mike mentioned as well, even a poor bore will surprise you as to how well they will shoot.  Would definitely not reline the barrel as others have mentioned. 

In one of the photos you posted above, it looks like the magazine tube could be screwed in a turn or two to engage the inlet on the underside of the barrel–not sure if it was screwed out when you took the photo. 

I think there has been some discussion on here about tightening the TD wobble by removing the forearm wood and cap and tightening the three screws on the underside of the TD ring (Or it may have been in one of Mark Douglas’ videos).  This is not an easy task and you need a proper screwdriver to do it.  Do not overtighten the screws to the point where you expand the metal enough to cause the screw to penetrate through the steel, its very thin.  Just tighten each a little at a time till the wobble is gone.  If you overtighten one of the screws, moving too much metal forward, you can back out the screw and gently tap on the TD ring surface to relieve it a bit and start over–however the more you do that you run the chance of damaging that thin metal on the TD ring under that adjustment screw. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Posts: 18
January 2, 2023 - 5:43 pm

12sp_QuotePost

1892takedown said
I agree with mvcrs & Bert, shoot the 170 grain jacketed bullets, they will likely work best unless you cast your own (a gas check bullet like Mike mentioned would be preferred).  Not sure how much more cleaning will have much of an effect from what I can see.  The bore looks pitted but rifling looks like it goes out to or near the muzzle.  As Mike mentioned as well, even a poor bore will surprise you as to how well they will shoot.  Would definitely not reline the barrel as others have mentioned. 

In one of the photos you posted above, it looks like the magazine tube could be screwed in a turn or two to engage the inlet on the underside of the barrel–not sure if it was screwed out when you took the photo. 

I think there has been some discussion on here about tightening the TD wobble by removing the forearm wood and cap and tightening the three screws on the underside of the TD ring (Or it may have been in one of Mark Douglas’ videos).  This is not an easy task and you need a proper screwdriver to do it.  Do not overtighten the screws to the point where you expand the metal enough to cause the screw to penetrate through the steel, its very thin.  Just tighten each a little at a time till the wobble is gone.  If you overtighten one of the screws, moving too much metal forward, you can back out the screw and gently tap on the TD ring surface to relieve it a bit and start over–however the more you do that you run the chance of damaging that thin metal on the TD ring under that adjustment screw. 

  

Hmm yikes, that is a bit scary so I will probably avoid that, even though I have a set of gunsmithing screwdrivers, I notice on this gun when tightening, even with those screwdrivers I felt it slipping slightly (like people before me had slightly stripped different screws) so I stopped

I usually tighten it all the way it, but unfortunately it goes another 1/10th or 1/8th turn until its actually tight, beyond the 6 oclock position. It goes more to 7 oclock

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6168
January 2, 2023 - 6:01 pm

13sp_QuotePost

Exuma said

Hmm yikes, that is a bit scary so I will probably avoid that, even though I have a set of gunsmithing screwdrivers, I notice on this gun when tightening, even with those screwdrivers I felt it slipping slightly (like people before me had slightly stripped different screws) so I stopped

  

Chances of slipping reduced if you hold bit in slot with one hand while turning with the other.  The Chapman ratchet wrench allows better control, I think. 

Maybe best thing to do before wasting more time bore cleaning, which may or may not help, is shoot with the 170 gs to find out if they raise accuracy to some reasonable degree, like 3 MOA.  I could live with 4 MOA, but then I leave the 500 yd shots to the experts.  (Expert gut-shooters, I mean.)

Avatar
Posts: 18
January 2, 2023 - 6:04 pm

14sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Exuma said

Hmm yikes, that is a bit scary so I will probably avoid that, even though I have a set of gunsmithing screwdrivers, I notice on this gun when tightening, even with those screwdrivers I felt it slipping slightly (like people before me had slightly stripped different screws) so I stopped

  

Chances of slipping reduced if you hold bit in slot with one hand while turning with the other.  The Chapman ratchet wrench allows better control, I think. 

Maybe best thing to do before wasting more time bore cleaning, which may or may not help, is shoot with the 170 gs to find out if they raise accuracy to some reasonable degree, like 3 MOA.  I could live with 4 MOA, but then I leave the 500 yd shots to the experts.  (Expert gut-shooters, I mean.)

  

That was basically my other question. I read a lot of stories of peoples guns blowing up because SEVERE leading is acting as an obstruction. I have no idea if I cleaned enough out where it’s safe to shoot jacketed bullets.

Ive been told shooting jacketed will clean the rest of the lead out, but ohter people have said it just makes it far more difficult to get out because now its ground into the bore… so I was taking extra steps to be very certain that shooting jacketed bullets was the correct juncture at this point in time as opposed to more cleaning steps. 

I actually forgot to include that point in my original post, but thanks for reminding me

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Posts: 10639
January 2, 2023 - 6:16 pm

15sp_QuotePost

Exuma said

Bert H. said

The rifling twist rate Winchester used for the 30 WCF was 1:12, which was optimum for the 170-gr bullet weight.  If you shoot modern 150-gr factory loads in an old Model 1894 with its original sights, it will shoot high at all range settings on the rear sight elevator.

Like the other fellow mentioned, do NOT reline the barrel.  Keep working on the bore until it gets as clean as possible, and then shoot it with 170-gr loads.

Bert

  

So do you think 1:9 was because I mismeasured? It seemed like I did it right but I will try again.

Also, what is the best way to do this “soak” method that I hear about. Do I just plug the barrel somehow, then put the barrel vertically and fill it to the brim with kroil or something? How do I further clean it?

I seee someone mentioned these: https://www.big45metalcleaner.com/

  

Yes, I am certain that you did not measure the twist rate correctly.

Short of the mercury method that Clarence mentioned, the only way to remove lead fouling is repeated brushing with a stiff bronze for copper wire bore brush.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Posts: 6168
January 2, 2023 - 6:42 pm

16sp_QuotePost

Exuma said

That was basically my other question. I read a lot of stories of peoples guns blowing up because SEVERE leading is acting as an obstruction. I have no idea if I cleaned enough out where it’s safe to shoot jacketed bullets.

You have–don’t worry about it; blast away at $2/rd.  (Though I think a gun blowing up due to leading alone is pure BS.)

Avatar
Posts: 4528
January 2, 2023 - 7:13 pm

17sp_QuotePost

I use Shooters Choice MC-7.  Wet a couple of patches and run them through the bore.  After an hour or so scrub the the bore with a brush at least 20 strokes.  When using a brush push it all the way through before you change direction so the bristles can re align.  Run a couple more wet patches and let soak for a day or two.  Your gun should be upside down so any junk can fall out and not into the receiver.

Like others have said, slug the barrel.  Then use lead bullets .001″ over the groove diameter.  Jacketed bullets as close to the groove diameter may work better.  You can experiment with powders, primers and bullet seating depth.  In today’s market you may be stuck with whatever powder or primers you can get.  Don’t load hot loads or use magnum primers.

Hornady makes a lock and load tool that is curved for use in lever actions.  This tool will help you find a starting seating depth. The use of this tool requires a modified case and a bullet comparator body and comparator to attach to a caliper for measurements. It will tell you where the bullet is touching the lands.  One other way is to load the bullet long and and see if it will chamber.  If it won’t chamber seat the bullet .001″ deeper and keep doing this until the action will close.  Measure this data point and start seating bullets deeper into the case for testing. One problem that may come up is with lever guns is you may need to seat the bullets farther from the lands than desired just to be able to cycle the round through the action.  So make a dummy round to verify.

*Just for clarification when using the Hornady tool this measures the distance from the base of the case to the spot on the ogive of the bullet where it sits in relationship to the lands.  This has nothing to do with OAL of the round. Always seat your bullets by base to ogive. Each bullet may be a little different than the next one.  +/- .002″ may not make a difference but .005″ will for sure.

I’m not going to get into neck tension but it is one of the more important things to consider when trying to get the most accuracy out of a load.  I will just say don’t roll crimp, taper crimp and learn how to measure what is going on and use the least amount of any type of crimp that will allow the bullet to seal the case on ignition and not be effected by recoil.  Don’t believe what others say.  Do some testing and find out the truth.

Avatar
Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 788
January 4, 2023 - 5:49 pm

18sp_QuotePost

I have found that the lead removing “spring” type bore brushes seem to work better than the standard “brush” type. You might give it a try.  RDB

001.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Posts: 490
January 4, 2023 - 6:01 pm

19sp_QuotePost

My first thought is that the front and rear sights are not compatible, one could throw rocks and hit a 12” target at 25 yds.

Avatar
Posts: 104
January 8, 2023 - 7:19 am

20sp_QuotePost

From what I can see of the bore I would say it is severely leaded.  The groves look bad but the lands look great with no rust or pitting.  Rust does not care about grooves or lands it is an equal opportunity player.  There are some stainless brushes out there.  DO NOT USE them, they can severely damage the bore. 

THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!

IMG_4414-Copy.JPG

 

Forum Timezone:
UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Devices in use: Desktop (44), Phone (17), Tablet (2)

Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12527
Posts: 108814
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1731
Members: 8737
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation