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Anyone have a serial number range or examples of the 45-90 ‘ 86’s sent to England for the Royal Flying Corps ? This one is proofed and se # 152xxx . Input ? Thx
Yes, I have handled one in a museum in the UK and have some good photos of it. Round barrel and checkered metal shotgun butt plate from memory. I have seen another one on a UK dealers web site, but my requests for the serial number have gone unanswered.
My research at the National Archives shows that there were at lest 21 of them with 17 being sold in the early 1930’s by A G Parker (which went on to become Parker Hale). The other 4 were deemed to be un-serviceable and were likely scrapped. Is the example you have stamped on the top of the barrel at the breech, sold by A G Parker B’ham, or words to that effect?
I have been told by the Model 1886 guru who name has slipped by mind that the one in the museum in the UK was part of a shipment of 25 rifles to the London Armoury Co who were the UK agents for Colt and Winchester. Non of this is definitive of course. I was going to collaborate on an article with this gentlemen but that was a few years ago and never eventuated.
Please PM me with the full serial number of the rifle if you can, will keep confidential, thanks.
Regards
Alan David
Sydney
I believe John Madl did some research and possibly an article on them. Believed that they were tasked with shooting down balloons during WW I
Mike, do you have a copy of the article or details of where and when it was published?
Regards
Alan
Will have rifle inhand shortly . Can’t comment as to whether any surplus agent(s) stamped rifle . The butt is heavy steel ” checkered ” SG style . Se # specifically is 152727 . Just !! Got off the phone w Cody have paid for a broader range search as to how many went to London around this serial number which may or may not add more than speculation if it is or isn’t . Will post my results . And would surely love to see a link to the article over and above the basic generic google results . Cheers
The one in the Museum in the UK, which I handled is VERY close.
152701 with the letter A as a suffix.
Let us know after you have had a chance to get your mitts on it, thanks.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
Wow , yeah eh !! It has “A” suffix but didn’t include above as not important as they were numbered 1 thru xxxxxx regardless of alpha. That’s a real !! Help . Still waiting on Cody as of this post . Cheers
Ok . Have rifle inhand . Upon real close inspection on the left side of the buttstock middle 2-3″ in from middle of buttplate is a cartouche . It was struck w a ” hollow” stamp whereby the crossed swords or propellers ? Or ?? Can’t quite make it out , are raised and u can feel it with your finger . Aside from that , the above mentioned museum piece is very close in se #’s and ” thx Connie ” @ Cody , 82 additional 45-90’s shipped to the London Arms co. Within a run of 1500 or so in serial numbers w mine . Guess , She is what she is . Zeppelin blaster !! Thx fellows for your help
The mark on the butt appears to be the British ‘sold out of service’ mark. This is applied to show that a small arms has officially been released from service.
Does your rifle also have A G Parker Birmingham, stamped on the barrel near the breech also and Enfield inspection mark of a broad arrow and a number with the letter E under it?
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
Of all things just acquired another Royal Flying Corps. 1886 45/90 75 numbers apart from my previous one . Confirmed by Cody same destination / configuration etc . Huh eh ??
Didn’t the RFC risk ammo-supply problems with a non-regulation cartridge?
Forgive my ignorance on this topic, but how were these rifles intended to be used by the RFC? Trying to work a lever action rifle from the open cockpit of a Great War aeroplane seems to be a difficult challenge. I suppose it was possible from the rear cockpit of two seat aeroplane.
I recall reading that early in the war pilots used revolvers, rifles, and other non automatic weapons. Clarence raises a good point about the 45-90 WCF ammunition being non-standard British forces.
Interesting topic.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
Forgive my ignorance on this topic, but how were these rifles intended to be used by the RFC? Trying to work a lever action rifle from the open cockpit of a Great War aeroplane seems to be a difficult challenge. I suppose it was possible from the rear cockpit of two seat aeroplane.I recall reading that early in the war pilots used revolvers, rifles, and other non automatic weapons. Clarence raises a good point about the 45-90 WCF ammunition being non-standard British forces.
Interesting topic.
One of the main duties of WWI pilots was shooting down observation balloons…which in static trench warfare were constantly in use. That may have been a potential use for such guns (even double-rifles were used for the same purpose), but still, the ammo-supply problem seems to me to offset the theoretical advantage of a bigger slug.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Congrats on your most interesting acquisition, Accumulator. Did you ever find the article you were looking for?
Mike
Article by John M? No . Also this ammo concern stated above ^^ I may stand corrected but the special incendiary round was produced mostly in England itself . It was NOT a standard 45-90 round as we would know it . “ google “ the round . Lots of info on it .
Mike Hunter said
I believe John Madl did some research and possibly an article on them. Believed that they were tasked with shooting down balloons during WW I
Mike,
I can’t find where any such article was written by John Madl for the Winchester Collector magazine. So maybe it was in some other publication. I did find the following five articles.
Summer 2018
- Model 1886 Carbine Research by John Madl
Spring 2018
- 33 WCF Model 1886 Research by John Madl
Summer 2017
- Model 1886 50-105EX Research by John Madl & Dan Shuey
Summer 1997
- “Model 1886 Winchester Research” by John Madl
Spring 1997
- “Model 1886, Forge Welded Barrels” by John Madl
Either way if you can get ahold of John, I’d imagine he would know something about them, as he’s been researching the 86 a long time.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
There has not been a specific magazine article on these RFC issue Model 1886 Winchesters. However, one is in the works which will pull together all the known information on this topic. Watch this space.
As an overview the rifle was a delivery system for the projectile which was designed to have an incendiary effect on the scourge of Zeppelins which were bombing British cities and towns much to the consternation of the public. The calibre of .45 was chosen in early development as it allowed more room than the standard British .303 round for the incendiary component and means of ignition. In this vane British .45 machine gun ammunition was trialed and used in Maxim machine guns which had been specially lightened. Records at the National Archives in London show that these were for ‘special service’ and indicate about 30 were converted.
The Model 1886 would have been chosen as it was a repeater and would have therefor been easier to reload than the Martini Henry carbine which was a single loader of course, even though the latter would be certainly be more handy in the confines of an aircraft.
The rifles that were used were purchased from the Winchester (and Colt) U.K. agent, the London Armoury Co. The total number purchased is not certain but various documents give an indication, this will be covered in the article.
I should point out that a .45/90 Model 1886 with British London proof marks is not an RFC issue rifle unless it has specific British military markings, along with another marking on the breech which will be covered in the article, with photos.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
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