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Model 70 in Royal Canadian Mounted Police service?
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March 7, 2024 - 8:07 am
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Hello enthusiasts,
I would like to take part in a sport shooting competition in Germany in wich only rifles that were used by an army or police unit before 1966 are permitted.
I want to shoot a Winchester Model 70 and have seen the M70 was used by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police from 1960 to 1973.
However, apart from this information, there is nothing else to be found about it.
Unfortunately I need something more detailed as proof.
Maybe here is someone who could help me with some research for more detailed information or documents.
Perhaps it’s possible to send me written proof that the M70 was official RCMP service rifle before ’66 and which version of the Winchester M70 was used?

Thank you in advance for your help and best wishes from Germany,
yours sincerely,

Steffen Jobst

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March 7, 2024 - 6:41 pm
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Steff,

Just Google ‘Winchester Model 70 RCMP’ and you’ll find info that may be helpful.

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March 8, 2024 - 10:44 am
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Thanks Tedk,
I’ve done this intensive but I did not find detailed information or documents.

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March 8, 2024 - 5:13 pm
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Hi Steffan-

Does your documentation have to prove use by the RCMP?  Your post said “only rifles that were used by an army or police unit before 1966″.  Would that include the US military or must it be a Canadian army or police unit?  Unfortunately, I know nothing about RCMP Model 70s beyond what can be found by Google search.

But if you need source documents and US military use is helpful, here are two original documents related to the purchase of (373) Model 70 Standard rifles by the US Marine Corps in 1942.  First is a clip from Winchester’s actual “Quotations and Orders” ledger from 1942.  The ones overmarked in red pencil were purchased.  For reference, G7004C is a Model 70 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifle with 24″ barrel and Winchester 22G Sporting rear sight, while G7014C is the same rifle with Lyman 48WJS receiver sight.

1942-USMC-Quotation-Order.pngImage Enlarger

The next document is a follow-up letter from Edwin Pugsley, Assistant Secretary of Winchester Repeating Arms Company to the USMC Quartermaster Corp confirming that the (373) rifles were shipped and soliciting further orders (that never materialized).

Pugsley-1942-Letter.jpegImage Enlarger

In the 1950s, many of these rifles were US Arsenal converted to heavy barrel “sniper” rifles that saw considerable use in combat during the Viet Nam war. One of those conversions is in a glass case in the USMC Museum in Quantic VA, and I think you can find a photo of it on-line.

Finally, quite a few Model 70 30-06 Target rifles were purchased and used by US military marksmanship teams in the 1950s.  While the Model 70 was never formally adopted as a combat weapon, there’s plenty of documentation that they were “used by an army…unit”.  You can see several M70 Target rifles in the front row of this team photo of the UMSC Rifle and Pistol Team taken at Camp Perry in 1955.

USMC-Rifle-and-Pistol-Team-Camp-Perry-Sept-7-1955.jpgImage Enlarger

I don’t know if any of this helps.  Must you document the EXACT configuration of rifle you will be using?  If so, what is it?  What kind of “written proof” is needed?  Somebody here can probably help… Laugh

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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March 8, 2024 - 7:45 pm
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Thanks Lou for the reply.
These are great documents.
Thank you for the effort.
The documents are good. I’m just afraid they won’t help me.
I already had the idea with the M70 at the USMC.
Unfortunately, the rules speak of a “standard weapon”.

The exact wording is:
“Repeating rifles with open sights (rear sight and front sight) and a magazine capacity of at least 5 cartridges that were introduced as standard armament in an army unit or police unit by December 31, 1965 are permitted.”

And exactly about the M70 in the USMC/US Army you can find the following wording everywhere:
“These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon.”

That’s why I came up with the idea of ​​the RCMP.
I can also imagine that US police units or the FBI used M70s as their standard weapon.
If there is any evidence of this, it would be very helpful to me.
So if there are any documents – welcome!

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March 8, 2024 - 10:45 pm
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Steffen Jobst said
The exact wording is:
“Repeating rifles with open sights (rear sight and front sight) and a magazine capacity of at least 5 cartridges that were introduced as standard armament in an army unit or police unit by December 31, 1965 are permitted.”  

Hi Steffen-

I see… Laugh

It is true that the US military never formally adopted the M70 as a front line (combat) weapon.  Which is doubly ironic, in that: 1) In the pre-WWII period the USMC rejected (then Lt-Col) Owen Van Orden’s recommendation that they adopt the M70 as a sniper rifle; and, 2) Many of Carlos Hathcock’s (as well as other US sniper’s) documented sniper kills in Viet Nam were accomplished using M70s that were part of that 1942 purchase, were “converted” to heavy barrel rifles by USMC armorers, and were issued by USMC to field units for combat use prior to the adoption of the Remington M700 based sniper rifles… Wink

Given that the matches in which you are competing accept “standard armament in an army or police unit”, the whole thing seems to boil down to your governing body’s interpretation of the word “standard”.  I suppose that, if I were to show up at one of your matches with the M70 “Van Orden Sniper” that won the 1952 Wimbledon Cup (1000 yard) match in the hands of a US serviceman, for whom the rifle was purchased/issued by his military unit (marksmanship team), I would be turned away b/c the rifle was not “standard” armament?  That’s almost funny… Wink

There’s plenty of documentation of the US military (several branches) purchasing M70 Target rifles for official marksmanship team use from BOTH (then Brig-Gen Ret) Owen Van Orden’s business “Evaluators Ltd” located in Triangle VA just outside of Quantico AND directly from Winchester.  Some “US Property” marked 30-06 Target rifles with CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) paperwork have been sold recently and documents can be located (auction listings).  But if the word “standard” in the regulations strictly means “combat weapon” then this doesn’t help… Cry

Hopefully some of our Canadian members have something that can help… Laugh

Good Luck!!!

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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March 9, 2024 - 12:43 am
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 Steffen have you tried to contact the R.C.M.P. directly?I am sure they did use the Model 70 as their rifle at one time.They could verify the use for you.Perhaps the R.C.M.P. museum could help you out.

 

 Here is a link to the site with an e mail for the collections unit.

 

https://rcmphc.com/en/contact-us

 

 Hope it is of help.

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March 9, 2024 - 1:23 am
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I sent you a PM.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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March 9, 2024 - 4:59 am
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28 gauge said https://rcmphc.com/en/contact-us 

I nominate the paragraph at the bottom of the page for 1st Place in the Guinness “Silliest Expression of PC” category.

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March 9, 2024 - 6:44 am
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Louis Luttrell said

Steffen Jobst said

The exact wording is:

“Repeating rifles with open sights (rear sight and front sight) and a magazine capacity of at least 5 cartridges that were introduced as standard armament in an army unit or police unit by December 31, 1965 are permitted.”  

Hi Steffen-

…………

if I were to show up at one of your matches with the M70 “Van Orden Sniper” that won the 1952 Wimbledon Cup (1000 yard) match in the hands of a US serviceman, for whom the rifle was purchased/issued by his military unit (marksmanship team), I would be turned away b/c the rifle was not “standard” armament?  That’s almost funny… Wink

 …………..

Good Luck!!!

Lou

  

Yes, Lou. Thats exactly what I thinbk. It’s absurd but these are the rules. And I am sure I will find an evidence for the standard use in some army/police unit so that I can take part with my Winchester.

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March 9, 2024 - 6:54 am
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28 gauge said
 Steffen have you tried to contact the R.C.M.P. directly?I am sure they did use the Model 70 as their rifle at one time.They could verify the use for you.Perhaps the R.C.M.P. museum could help you out

…………..

  

Thanks 28 gauge. Yes, I already had the idea and have already contacted both: the RCMP directly and to the heritage center.

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March 9, 2024 - 1:18 pm
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clarence said

28 gauge said https://rcmphc.com/en/contact-us 

I nominate the paragraph at the bottom of the page for 1st Place in the Guinness “Silliest Expression of PC” category.

  

 That is quite common here now a days.A lot of radio stations say it in their broadcasts.Example ,this is ABCD broadcasting on the unceded land of, what ever tribe.Many towns also say that on town printed paper as well.

Steffen Jobst said

28 gauge said

 Steffen have you tried to contact the R.C.M.P. directly?I am sure they did use the Model 70 as their rifle at one time.They could verify the use for you.Perhaps the R.C.M.P. museum could help you out

…………..

  

Thanks 28 gauge. Yes, I already had the idea and have already contacted both: the RCMP directly and to the heritage center.

  

 

 They should be able to give you the information you need.I know the Model 70 at one time was the rifle the R.C.M.P. used ,but unsure of just what time frame it was used in.Be sure to let us know your results.

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March 9, 2024 - 9:11 pm
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Arms and accoutrements of the rcmp by Phillip Klancher  has a write up about the model 70 in rcmp service first order received in. October 1964  Tom

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March 10, 2024 - 1:35 pm
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Tom Sterr said
Arms and accoutrements of the rcmp by Phillip Klancher  has a write up about the model 70 in rcmp service first order received in. October 1964  Tom

  

Thats a source I found! Thank you I hope this will help!

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