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HOW MANY 50-110 CARBINES WERE MADE?
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October 17, 2018 - 5:18 pm
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I tried to look this up in the surveys in the WACA magazine but  again it will not open the past publications sending me repeatedly back to log in. Another forum entry however.

So Model 1886 survey folks is there an answer to the question? A estimate, a WAG?Laugh  Where  might I find an answer?

Cheers

Kirk

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October 17, 2018 - 7:32 pm
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These figures are listed according to the survey done by John Madl in 2003.  Updated and corrected by John Hawk- W. L. Porter.

.50-110 EX.   9

.50-110         255

.50 EX.          906

.50 EX. A       3

 

I assume these are the caliber markings as they are written in the ledgers.

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October 18, 2018 - 12:11 am
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Thank you. I have these figures and some others that are close to these. These figures are for the total production, rifle,musket and carbine.  What I am attempting to ascertain is how many CARBINES were made in 50-110 caliber. Said another way how many masochists would want a light weigh gun with that kind of punishing recoil?!Cry

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Kirk

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October 18, 2018 - 12:50 am
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Never mind….. Found the answer. There were only 24 masochists Yell back in the day. Now I wonder how many had 1/2 magazines…..?

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Kirk

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October 18, 2018 - 3:10 am
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The numbers I provided above are CARBINES only, according to Madl’s research of the records.

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October 18, 2018 - 4:15 am
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
Never mind….. Found the answer. There were only 24 masochists Yell back in the day. Now I wonder how many had 1/2 magazines…..?

Cheers

Kirk  

That is the number of Carbines made in 50-100-450.  There were more than 1,200 made in 50-110.

Bert

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October 18, 2018 - 3:56 pm
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Thanks Win4575 and Bert,

My figures from  the work by J.M. Hawk in 1994 indicates that the number of 50-110 carbines was 255. This is the same number that Win4075 came up with.
Bert’s number of over 1,200 I can not find. I also can not rationalize that number. Out of all the 1886s made only 6,223 (4.4%) were carbines. If you take Bert’s number it means ~19% of all carbines were made in 50-110. I can’t come to grips with that. What am I missing?

Cheers

Kirk

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October 18, 2018 - 5:22 pm
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
Thanks Win4575 and Bert,

My figures from  the work by J.M. Hawk in 1994 indicates that the number of 50-110 carbines was 255. This is the same number that Win4075 came up with.
Bert’s number of over 1,200 I can not find. I also can not rationalize that number. Out of all the 1886s made only 6,223 (4.4%) were carbines. If you take Bert’s number it means ~19% of all carbines were made in 50-110. I can’t come to grips with that. What am I missing?

Cheers

Kirk  

Kirk,

John Madl and John (J.M.) Hawk began an extensive survey back in 2006, and when they finished it, the total count was 1,208 in 50 EX, and another 24 in 50-100-450.  These are accurate (verified) numbers.  You really need to read the Summer 2018 Collector magazine article.

Bert

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October 19, 2018 - 12:37 am
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I read the article. According to Madi their are only two express calibers .50-Express and .50-100-450. Then I look at a previous survey done by W.L. Porter and updated by John Hawk I note that there are eight Express calibers addressed. Then looking at Madi’s results and it seems they took the Porter/Hawk survey and, and with minor exceptions, just added all the express calibers together except for the .50-100-450 to come up with his two numbers. Whereas Porter and Hawk did a detailed breakdown of all eight express calibers. I can buy some questioning of calibers that had ones and twos but how do they justify the numbers of .50-110 at 255 each and .50 Exp. at 906 each and come up with one number of 1,208? Some new knowledge or methodology, new records? What did Porter and Hawk miss? What was Maki’s methodology and where is it published? And who verified it? In short where is the documented verification of the new 2,208 number?

And yes I have dog in the fight.

Cheers

Kirk

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October 19, 2018 - 2:40 am
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Kirk Fitzgerald said
I read the article. According to Madi their are only two express calibers .50-Express and .50-100-450. Then I look at a previous survey done by W.L. Porter and updated by John Hawk I note that there are eight Express calibers addressed. Then looking at Madi’s results and it seems they took the Porter/Hawk survey and, and with minor exceptions, just added all the express calibers together except for the .50-100-450 to come up with his two numbers. Whereas Porter and Hawk did a detailed breakdown of all eight express calibers. I can buy some questioning of calibers that had ones and twos but how do they justify the numbers of .50-110 at 255 each and .50 Exp. at 906 each and come up with one number of 1,208? Some new knowledge or methodology, new records? What did Porter and Hawk miss? What was Maki’s methodology and where is it published? And who verified it? In short where is the documented verification of the new 2,208 number?

And yes I have dog in the fight.

Cheers

Kirk  

You might consider discussing this with John Madl.  Based on my personal discussions with John, if he states that there were 1,208 Model 1886 Carbines made in 50 EX, I believe him.

Bert

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October 19, 2018 - 4:26 pm
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Is a 50-100-450 an express load?  I thought that the express loads were the 300 gr. loads.

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October 19, 2018 - 7:42 pm
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Winchester catalogs don’t list the .50-100-450 as an EXPRESS caliber.  Cartridge boxes and head stamps don’t say Express, like they do on the .50-95 and .50-110 EX.  1886 Winchester collectors would know more about how guns in this caliber are marked than I do, but I don’t remember seeing them marked in this way.  I think the idea of .50-100-450 being an Express caliber comes from the modern collectors terminology.  Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

i

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October 21, 2018 - 12:25 pm
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win4575 said
Winchester catalogs don’t list the .50-100-450 as an EXPRESS caliber.  Cartridge boxes and head stamps don’t say Express, like they do on the .50-95 and .50-110 EX.  1886 Winchester collectors would know more about how guns in this caliber are marked than I do, but I don’t remember seeing them marked in this way.  I think the idea of .50-100-450 being an Express caliber comes from the modern collectors terminology.  Just my opinion.

  I agree with that.To my knowledge, an express calibre of the day,was one using a lighter bullet with increased velocity .  The express meaning faster.Smile

 

 

 

 

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August 5, 2022 - 8:54 pm
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Given our recent discussion on .50 caliber M1886’s, I thought I would bring this up to the top.  Very interesting information and discussion.

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August 8, 2022 - 9:18 pm
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win4575 said
Winchester catalogs don’t list the .50-100-450 as an EXPRESS caliber.  Cartridge boxes and head stamps don’t say Express, like they do on the .50-95 and .50-110 EX.  1886 Winchester collectors would know more about how guns in this caliber are marked than I do, but I don’t remember seeing them marked in this way.  I think the idea of .50-100-450 being an Express caliber comes from the modern collectors terminology.  Just my opinion.

I would agree with that statement, not just collectors, but some authors as well. Yearout’s Reloading Tool monogram uses “.50-100-450 W.C.F. (Express)” throughout it. Frank Barnes’ Cartridge of the World book, depending on edition, lumps a lot of the .50 calibers together.

You got me thinking about what all the various “Express” calibers were there. Here’s the list I came up with.

.38 Express (.38-90 Winchester Express – Solid Ball)

.40-110 Express

.45-125 Express

.50-95 Express (Winchester Express)

.50-105 Express (Not a typo – Short Lived Rare Cartridge)

.50-110 Express

.50-140 Express (Very Rare Cartridge)

Sincerely,

Maverick

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August 8, 2022 - 9:36 pm
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I think the 45-90 is like an express.  Lighter bullet at faster speeds. 

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August 9, 2022 - 7:02 pm
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This thread dug up a memory of mine from about 40 years ago where, “knowledgeable” collectors would state that there were about 200 M1886 carbines were made (i.e. total of all calibers).  Back then, we didn’t have all this survey data.  It really speaks to how far we have been able to move forward in knowledge and understanding through the thorough and dedicated work done by people like Bert, Michael, Brad Dunbar, John Madl and many many others.  I’ll bet I speak for all of us when I express my gratitude to these fine men for their impressive work.

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August 9, 2022 - 7:51 pm
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steve004 said
This thread dug up a memory of mine from about 40 years ago where, “knowledgeable” collectors would state that there were about 200 M1886 carbines were made (i.e. total of all calibers).  Back then, we didn’t have all this survey data.  It really speaks to how far we have been able to move forward in knowledge and understanding through the thorough and dedicated work done by people like Bert, Michael, Brad Dunbar, John Madl and many many others.  I’ll bet I speak for all of us when I express my gratitude to these fine men for their impressive work.

Not to put down anyone work on surveys, as I’m doing my own and completely understand the struggle. I highly encourage anyone to pursue these avenues, as they can be quite a challenge and also just plain fun.

But I’d argue that we have always had majority of the “Survey Data” in the form of the original factory records located in Cody. Its just that those “knowledgeable” collectors didn’t know any better or didn’t want to pay for such a survey. A lot easier and cheaper to take a wild ass guess.

For example the research letter I posted the other day about 1886 Smoothbores in 50 Express. codyletter1-1.jpgImage EnlargerIt was done in 1990 (32 years ago), not exactly 40 years ago. I’ll have to check but I believe the person that ordered it only paid for two hours of research time. Well worth it if you ask me.

Sincerely,

Maverick

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August 9, 2022 - 9:15 pm
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Maverick – I think you make a good point.  However there are many exceptions to this.  For example, there’s a large percentage of records lost for models such as the Model 1892, 1894 and 1895 Winchesters.  Also, while the M1886 has a larger percentage of records available, there are research efforts to fill in where the records are not there.  In other genres, such as Bullards, there were zero factory records available.  Scott Jamieson has made a tremendous contribution in that regard.  Even in one of my tangent non-lever rifle interest areas – Ross Rifles – there are zero factory records available.  I have a friend who has been studiously recording the serial numbers and details of all the Ross rifles he encounters (gun shows, other collectors, auction ads, gunbroker, etc. etc.).  This is amounting to a significant contribution as well.

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August 9, 2022 - 11:16 pm
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I would like to say that to all that have dedicated their time to surveying and cataloging all this information to make it more palatable for us ” Junior Collectors”to find this is SOOO appreciated. Wish I had the knowledge and experience that you provide to us here. 

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