Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
HOW MANY 50-110 CARBINES WERE MADE?
October 17, 2018
5:18 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
February 5, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I tried to look this up in the surveys in the WACA magazine but  again it will not open the past publications sending me repeatedly back to log in. Another forum entry however.

So Model 1886 survey folks is there an answer to the question? A estimate, a WAG?Laugh  Where  might I find an answer?

Cheers

Kirk

.

October 17, 2018
7:32 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 283
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

These figures are listed according to the survey done by John Madl in 2003.  Updated and corrected by John Hawk- W. L. Porter.

.50-110 EX.   9

.50-110         255

.50 EX.          906

.50 EX. A       3

 

I assume these are the caliber markings as they are written in the ledgers.

October 18, 2018
12:11 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
February 5, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thank you. I have these figures and some others that are close to these. These figures are for the total production, rifle,musket and carbine.  What I am attempting to ascertain is how many CARBINES were made in 50-110 caliber. Said another way how many masochists would want a light weigh gun with that kind of punishing recoil?!Cry

Cheers

Kirk

October 18, 2018
12:50 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
February 5, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Never mind..... Found the answer. There were only 24 masochists Yell back in the day. Now I wonder how many had 1/2 magazines.....?

Cheers

Kirk

October 18, 2018
3:10 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 283
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The numbers I provided above are CARBINES only, according to Madl's research of the records.

October 18, 2018
4:15 am
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kirk Fitzgerald said
Never mind..... Found the answer. There were only 24 masochists Yell back in the day. Now I wonder how many had 1/2 magazines.....?

Cheers

Kirk  

That is the number of Carbines made in 50-100-450.  There were more than 1,200 made in 50-110.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

October 18, 2018
3:56 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
February 5, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks Win4575 and Bert,

My figures from  the work by J.M. Hawk in 1994 indicates that the number of 50-110 carbines was 255. This is the same number that Win4075 came up with.
Bert's number of over 1,200 I can not find. I also can not rationalize that number. Out of all the 1886s made only 6,223 (4.4%) were carbines. If you take Bert's number it means ~19% of all carbines were made in 50-110. I can't come to grips with that. What am I missing?

Cheers

Kirk

October 18, 2018
5:22 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kirk Fitzgerald said
Thanks Win4575 and Bert,

My figures from  the work by J.M. Hawk in 1994 indicates that the number of 50-110 carbines was 255. This is the same number that Win4075 came up with.
Bert's number of over 1,200 I can not find. I also can not rationalize that number. Out of all the 1886s made only 6,223 (4.4%) were carbines. If you take Bert's number it means ~19% of all carbines were made in 50-110. I can't come to grips with that. What am I missing?

Cheers

Kirk  

Kirk,

John Madl and John (J.M.) Hawk began an extensive survey back in 2006, and when they finished it, the total count was 1,208 in 50 EX, and another 24 in 50-100-450.  These are accurate (verified) numbers.  You really need to read the Summer 2018 Collector magazine article.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

October 19, 2018
12:37 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 101
Member Since:
February 5, 2016
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I read the article. According to Madi their are only two express calibers .50-Express and .50-100-450. Then I look at a previous survey done by W.L. Porter and updated by John Hawk I note that there are eight Express calibers addressed. Then looking at Madi's results and it seems they took the Porter/Hawk survey and, and with minor exceptions, just added all the express calibers together except for the .50-100-450 to come up with his two numbers. Whereas Porter and Hawk did a detailed breakdown of all eight express calibers. I can buy some questioning of calibers that had ones and twos but how do they justify the numbers of .50-110 at 255 each and .50 Exp. at 906 each and come up with one number of 1,208? Some new knowledge or methodology, new records? What did Porter and Hawk miss? What was Maki's methodology and where is it published? And who verified it? In short where is the documented verification of the new 2,208 number?

And yes I have dog in the fight.

Cheers

Kirk

October 19, 2018
2:40 am
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 9254
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Kirk Fitzgerald said
I read the article. According to Madi their are only two express calibers .50-Express and .50-100-450. Then I look at a previous survey done by W.L. Porter and updated by John Hawk I note that there are eight Express calibers addressed. Then looking at Madi's results and it seems they took the Porter/Hawk survey and, and with minor exceptions, just added all the express calibers together except for the .50-100-450 to come up with his two numbers. Whereas Porter and Hawk did a detailed breakdown of all eight express calibers. I can buy some questioning of calibers that had ones and twos but how do they justify the numbers of .50-110 at 255 each and .50 Exp. at 906 each and come up with one number of 1,208? Some new knowledge or methodology, new records? What did Porter and Hawk miss? What was Maki's methodology and where is it published? And who verified it? In short where is the documented verification of the new 2,208 number?

And yes I have dog in the fight.

Cheers

Kirk  

You might consider discussing this with John Madl.  Based on my personal discussions with John, if he states that there were 1,208 Model 1886 Carbines made in 50 EX, I believe him.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

October 19, 2018
4:26 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 740
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Is a 50-100-450 an express load?  I thought that the express loads were the 300 gr. loads.

October 19, 2018
7:42 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 283
Member Since:
November 2, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Winchester catalogs don't list the .50-100-450 as an EXPRESS caliber.  Cartridge boxes and head stamps don't say Express, like they do on the .50-95 and .50-110 EX.  1886 Winchester collectors would know more about how guns in this caliber are marked than I do, but I don't remember seeing them marked in this way.  I think the idea of .50-100-450 being an Express caliber comes from the modern collectors terminology.  Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

i

October 21, 2018
12:25 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 439
Member Since:
March 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

win4575 said
Winchester catalogs don't list the .50-100-450 as an EXPRESS caliber.  Cartridge boxes and head stamps don't say Express, like they do on the .50-95 and .50-110 EX.  1886 Winchester collectors would know more about how guns in this caliber are marked than I do, but I don't remember seeing them marked in this way.  I think the idea of .50-100-450 being an Express caliber comes from the modern collectors terminology.  Just my opinion.

  I agree with that.To my knowledge, an express calibre of the day,was one using a lighter bullet with increased velocity .  The express meaning faster.Smile

 

 

 

 

i  

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: dane62, mrcvs
50 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 6293

Posts: 50279


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 840

Members: 8453

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 3900

twobit: 2399

TXGunNut: 2053

Maverick: 1414

Big Larry: 1328

JWA: 1219

Wincacher: 1180

Brad Dunbar: 1043

clarence: 872

Matt74: 836

Navigation